Waitrose or M&S TYPE supermarket - do we want one on LL?

[pk]

aprayerforowenmeany Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The results of a question posted in this

> forum can hardly be hardly be held up as

> representative of the wider community.

totally agree

but if they were and all the people on here are really committed to supporting local independents then presumably the independents would survive even if another option was available for those that wanted it - so i can't see the problem with filling an otherwise empty unit, creating new jobs and enabling those without e.g. the money or time to shop in the independents to shop somewhere else

[Mick Mac]

James Barber Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> No one is proposing a 'big fat supermarket'

> The site I had thoguht of would be similar in size

> to the current Coop.

> BUT its clear that despite many individual posts

> in the past requesting such another supermarket

> that when actually asked posters are strongly

> against.

Hi James

Its one thing having an available site - but is there any concrete expression of interest from either Waitrose or M&S that has prompted you to survey local interest? (you may have answered this already in the 9 pages...?)

[James Barber]

Hi Mick Mac,

I have heard their is interest from all the chains in opening more stores in the East Dulwich area.

[Loz]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Throw out Co-op. Get Waitrose in instead.

That would be an ideal solution.

[duke]

Waitrose or M&S, Yes please,

To see a higher quality of food, and a far healthier in my experience than Iceland, Tesco, Co-op and Sainsbury`s,

you may think that the healthier option from Waitrose or M&S might be more expensive than the local independent shops, you would be wrong. The only competition would be from the local shops claiming to sell healthier or a higher quality, but at higher prices!

Ocado, is for those people who dont have time to shop?

I would like to shop at the independents but I dont have deep pockets to indulge them,

As for Co-op, Tesco`s, and Sainsbury`s its simply a matter of price and convenience, Sainsbury`s having both (parking!)

Iceland, I never buy frozen!

Healthy competition and choice is for everyone, and not to be dictated to by others !!!!!!!

As for the site, yes the police station would be a good spot, but then it need not have to be on LL, only near?

So my vote is YES.

[Dickensman]

What Jeremy said.

[zeban]

duke Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Waitrose or M&S, Yes please,

>

> To see a higher quality of food, and a far

> healthier in my experience than Iceland, Tesco,

> Co-op and Sainsbury`s,

> you may think that the healthier option from

> Waitrose or M&S might be more expensive than the

> local independent shops, you would be wrong. The

> only competition would be from the local shops

> claiming to sell healthier or a higher quality,

> but at higher prices!

> Ocado, is for those people who dont have time to

> shop?

> I would like to shop at the independents but I

> dont have deep pockets to indulge them,

> As for Co-op, Tesco`s, and Sainsbury`s its simply

> a matter of price and convenience, Sainsbury`s

> having both (parking!)

> Iceland, I never buy frozen!

> Healthy competition and choice is for everyone,

> and not to be dictated to by others !!!!!!!

> As for the site, yes the police station would be a

> good spot, but then it need not have to be on LL,

> only near?

>

> So my vote is YES.

Finally someone who speaks sense. Thank you Duke, this is exactly how I feel too.

Personally I think LL would be the wrong place for one anyway because the store would end up being too small. But a larger one in the nearby area would be brilliant.

[Bellenden Belle]

duke Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> you may think that the healthier option from

> Waitrose or M&S might be more expensive than the

> local independent shops, you would be wrong. The

> only competition would be from the local shops

> claiming to sell healthier or a higher quality,

> but at higher prices!

This is an absolute myth. Meat, fruit and veg is ridiculously expensive in supermarkets compared to using a greengrocers at Pretty Traditional or a butchers like William Rose - particularly if you choose supermarket organic or premium ranges.

There have also been a number of times when I have gone into the Co-Op to buy essential groceries - storecupboard basics and toiletries for example - only to find them more expensive than either the Turkish supermarket opposite East Dulwich Deli or AJ Farmers.

True - there are some expensive independents - East Dulwich Deli and The Cheese Block spring to mind - but they are offering products that I wouldn't necessarily have every week but which are wonderful as a treat or a special occasion.

Duke - I would happily challenge you to a price comparison if you send me your last supermarket receipt!

[zeban]

To be fair I think Co-Op is extremely expensive for what you're actually buying.

[TJ]

I don't see how a small supermarket such as waitrose or m&S will damage LL. I would in fcat assume the opposite to be the case.

It may reduce the que at William Rose a bit though...

:-)

[huncamunca]

and again I must ask

How much "choice" will make you truly happy ?

37 types of different flavour dog poo is indeed a choice, but at the end of the day, its still dog poo

[Jeremy]

Bellenden Belle Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> This is an absolute myth. Meat, fruit and veg is

> ridiculously expensive in supermarkets compared to

> using a greengrocers at Pretty Traditional or a

> butchers like William Rose - particularly if you

> choose supermarket organic or premium ranges.

To be fair, it does depend what you buy, and what level of quality you're looking for. If you want a ?4 chicken or a ?1 pack of mince, you won't find those at WR. But on the other hand, some items are a similar price and much better quality (e.g. duck breasts, rack of lamb).

Similar story with fruit and veg. You can often get a huge bag of carrots for ?1 or less at the supermarkets. But then things like peppers are overpriced and not particularly tasty.

[Keef]

Also depends how many mouths you're feeding. Bit of top quality meat for 2 of you is fine, but when you have 4 or more mouths to feed, your standards may slip a bit.

[Bellenden Belle]

Keef Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Also depends how many mouths you're feeding. Bit

> of top quality meat for 2 of you is fine, but when

> you have 4 or more mouths to feed, your standards

> may slip a bit.

Very true although actually the supermarkets tend to only offer certain cuts of meat - those more recognisable to the consumer and consequently sometimes more costly - leaving people to rely on cheaper affordable options.

Whereas if you're on a budget and do a bit of research you can get really good quality meat at William Rose for far less than you would expect. For example I've had a lamb's heart for 50p from WR recently that was absolutely lip-smackingly delicious - and was told how to cook it by Dave the owner himself. Similarly I'm a big fan of pheasant - a bird serves two, sometimes with leftovers, for ?3.50 - a really good alternative to chicken.

But those are just two cheap options that you won't get at your supermarket. Leaving you with that economy packet of mince instead. So actually when we talk about choice, I would suggest that's one of the last things supermarkets offer.

[jimmyay]

Absolutely a 1000% yes , we do want a Waitrose and one instead of the Co-op would be welcomed by many.

Not that fussed about M&S to be honest, it's expensive ready meals that don't fill you up, though i would probably visit it.

I guess there's a gap in the market for either a small Simply Food or a Waitrose Local.

I've seen lots of discussion about the merits of a new supermarket in LL or E Dulwich in General.

Several points to make.

1) The Co-op is awful. I would love to like it but its appallingly run & very overpriced for what you get.

2) The best option is to have the Co-op sell its lease to Waitrose or M&S rather than an altogether new supermarket being built.

3). I totally get the protests that Indy shops might suffer. However, i don't think the local specialist shops need to worry very much. Many of the visits to Waitrose will be from evening trade - none of the local shops are open by the time most people get home from work. Speciality products will still be bought.

At the moment i actively avoid the Co-op in Lordship Lane ( I am an SE24 resident). If it was a Waitrose it would definately make my visits to Lordship Lane more frequent - more footfall = better for all shops.

however :

4. Catchment & demand. Is it there? There is a well off local population but is it big enough? Dulwich Village is posh , sure, but i think there are only about 10,000 people living in SE21 - hardly enough to sustain a large waitrose - and only a proportion of the people who live in SE23 and SE24 would visit such a store.

The core catchment area might not be big enough to sustain a large Waitrose - it's different to Clapham Junction, Fulham, or Gloucester Road, or Earls Court, where there are streets and streets of densely populated unbroken ABC1 demographic.

This is perhaps the most important factor which will decide whether we get an "upmarket" supermarket.

I personally am very much favour of a Waitrose in place of the Co-op but i wonder whether "4" above may weigh against it.

[foxyarchie]

Yes to either Waitrose or M&S

[Penguin68]

All this was apparently kicked-off because local businesses wanted a magic wand waved and their incomes increased - as I have said in an earlier post bringing in a posh chain will not do this - James has noted that lots of chains want to come into Dulwich - which would entirely destroy the lcoal businesses, as these can afford higher rents and change the character of LL to just 'any-old-high-street'.

The way businesses increase their income/ profit is to do things better and satisfy customers more. Local businesses could act more business like - there are a number of supports to SMEs (Small and Medium Enterprises) including subsidised consultancy - maybe those ones who wanted James to do something could make use of this support to see what they could do to improve themselves and their futures.

Maybe a greater focus on customer service and what's called service surround might help.

[DulwichFox]

The Co-op is truely abysmal.

With it's empty shelves It resembles images of Eastern-Bloc supermarkets during the Cold War.

It is much over priced.

Many of the Perishable goods are reduced because they have reached their Use-by date.

Vegetables are sparse and those that are available look 'tired'

Gateways, Somerfields and now The Co-op have failed to make the site work.

Probally because of Sainsburys at Dog Kennel Hill

and now with the opening of the Sainsbury Local up by the Plough, things will not get

any better for any store in Lordship Lane.

Not sure what the answer is.

[jimmyay]

DulwichFox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The Co-op is truely abysmal.

>

> With it's empty shelves It resembles images of

> Eastern-Bloc supermarkets during the Cold War.

>

That's so true!

A Waitrose caters for a better class of person though, so maybe they could make the site work where others have failed...

[huncamunca]

>

> That's so true!

>

> A Waitrose caters for a better class of person

> though, so maybe they could make the site work

> where others have failed...

Quote of the day

[Jeremy]

Bellenden Belle - I think most of us realise that we're lucky to have good butchers in the neighbourhood. The point is that there's a market for both.

[bonaome]

In defense of the co-op, maybe the prices there are a bit higher because their ethical stance means they pay reasonable rates to their suppliers and try to avoid being thoroughly despicable in their buying practices.

[bonaome]

aprayerforowenmeany Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> James. The results of a question posted in this

> forum can hardly be hardly be held up as

> representative of the wider community. I see in

> the news this morning that Waitrose plan to open

> 37 more stores this year. Do you know more than

> you are letting on? There are thousands of people

> in the area who probably aren't even aware of this

> forums existence. What about their opinion?

-----------------------------------------------------------

I agree with what aprayerforowenmeany said.

[Twirly]

DulwichFox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The Co-op is truely abysmal.

>

> With it's empty shelves It resembles images of Eastern-Bloc supermarkets during the Cold War.

>

> It is much over priced.

>

> Many of the Perishable goods are reduced because they have reached their Use-by date.

> Vegetables are sparse and those that are

> available look 'tired'

>

> Gateways, Somerfields and now The Co-op have failed to make the site work.

>

> Probally because of Sainsburys at Dog Kennel Hill

>

> and now with the opening of the Sainsbury Local up by the Plough, things will not get any better for any store in Lordship Lane.

>

> Not sure what the answer is.

I?m sorry, but I don?t think that we?re shopping in the same branch of the Co-op! It isn?t the best around by a long way, but this is total exaggeration.

I went in last night between 5.30 and 6 to get some salmon, a red pepper, broccoli, pitta bread, some taramasalata and skimmed milk. The only thing I couldn?t get, oddly, was the skimmed milk though they were well stocked with full fat and semi-skimmed.

I do wonder if it?s a bit chicken and egg though ? no-one shops there, so they don?t keep their stock levels up, particularly on perishable items, so no-one shops there.

I agree that sometimes it can be a bit hit and miss, but I find that?s the same with Sainsbury?s, as they don?t always have what I want despite being several times the size. You should try the Co-op where my in-laws live, which is half the size, the only supermarket in the town and where they think that broccoli is supposed to be yellow!

[Bellenden Belle]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Bellenden Belle - I think most of us realise that

> we're lucky to have good butchers in the

> neighbourhood. The point is that there's a market

> for both.

Actually, there are people arguing on here about supermarkets being more cost effective which makes me think lots of people are making assumptions about what supermarkets will bring to the area. Later opening hours and perhaps greater convenience for some - yes. More choice and better value for money - not necessarily. That was my point.