8 June

[red devil]

Can anyone remember what the final EDF election poll figures were? From memory around 61% of EDFers were intending to vote Labour, but in the GE is was over 69%. Just wondering how representative the EDF is of the area... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/politics/constituencies/E14000673

[Cardelia]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Corbyn has agreed to renew Trident as that's what

> the Labour party conference voted for. Nothing to

> do with betraying his principles, it's accepting

> the democratic decision of his party. Similarly,

> with Brexit, whatever his principles, he's agreed

> to abide by the democratic choice of the people.

> Nice try, but you can't equate accepting a

> democratic vote, whether in the party or the

> country, with the sordid grubbing around and

> cosying up to a bunch of rightwing homophobic

> creationist terrorist-supporting whackadoodles to

> try to stay in power by any possible means in

> which Mrs.May is currently engaging.

Corbyn is vehemently against nuclear weapons and wants to scrap Trident. Yet he campaigned on a platform of keeping Trident. Whatever the reasons behind this decision, that equates to betraying his principles in order to stand a chance of getting into power. If he really felt that strongly about Trident then he should have resigned rather than campaign to keep it. Or at the very least leave it out of the manifesto. But he didn't. To him, the chance of getting into power was more important than being staying true to his principles on Trident.

By the way I don't blame him for doing this. It's not meant to be derogatory towards Corbyn at all, it's just that I don't think he should be held up as a paragon of virtue and principle when in reality he is no better than any other politician who has to accept that compromise is a necessary part of politics.

[Loz]

Many people are using saying that the Tories are putting "party before the country" in dealing with the DUP.

There is a simple solution to this - if a big enough group of MPs (i.e. about 8) were to put the country before their parties and do a deal with May on a simple confidence and supply agreement - that is, pass the Queens Speech and the budget only - then problem solved. The DUP out of the frame and we have something that looks vaguely like a government.

But this won't happen because each and every person in Westminster is an utter hypocrite. The lot of them.

[steveo]

I don?t hate young people much more than the next bloke but I am having trouble with this ?Great Labour triumph? and their part in it.

Clearly, we should never have had a referendum in the first place but when we did the youth of the country should have risen up and put a stop to it all. They instead opted to not vote to Remain or vote at all.

Some months later, they did struggle out of bed and as a consequence that nitwit Corbyn is being hailed as a potential prime minister.

Meanwhile in the real world, no one?s driving the boat, Europe is pissing itself laughing at us, EU nurses won?t come here, Moody?s reckons our credit rating is in the shitter, High Street spending is down and no one can afford to go abroad anymore.

I?m having trouble seeing any victory anywhere.

11% of teenagers think that fruit pastilles contribute to their five a day apparently

[rendelharris]

Well, and the Tories doubtless did pretty well with the pensioner vote, and I bet some of them believe some pretty risible things as well. If we're going to start taking the vote away from everyone that someone thinks are numpties we'll be able to hold the elections in a telephone booth. It's a democracy, everyone's entitled to a vote and to use it or not as they choose, no matter how stupid one may think they are or how much one disagrees with their opinions! It's not ideal, but as Sir Winston said, it's the worst form of government apart from all the others.

[steveo]

Of course you're right but the two yoot I had a chance to interrogate knew less than my cat about the ishoos, and my cat bangs its head every time it goes under the coffee table

[JoeLeg]

I nearly fired someone yesterday because he told me he "tossed a coin" to decide whether to vote Labour or spoil his ballot paper. It was his first election and he displays all the characteristics Steveo mentions. A number of other people of similar age work here as well, and fortunately none of them are as idiotic. Obviously I didn't actually fire him (he voted Labour, not that I care how he voted, only that he voted), but it made me really angry. I can handle the overly idealistic nature of youth - that was me once, and I think it's their right to see the world how they think it should be, before life knocks seven bells out of them.

But thinking that a spoilt ballot paper is a political process is just retarded.

Like Rendell, I adhere to Churchill on this. It's flawed, but better than the alternatives.

[????]

The Pied Piper of Islington dun good, far better than a cat Steveo.

[????]

I don't normally go to anecdote but i will.

I work in an international, digital business (not in the City as people tend to think on here); the people I work with are intelligent, articulate, well paid, well motivated individuals.

They are mainly aged late 20s-40 (I'm well out of their age range but am reasonably youthful looking for my age)

On Friday it became really obvious they had almost all voted Labour - jubilation, smiles, etc

I think they don't really remember the 70s, the IRA, what nationalised industries were actually like, pre-Berlin Wall falling politics - they talk all the stuff you see on social media if you challenge them on stuff; they really hate the Tories

Labour will walk an election sooner or later

[????]

So uncosted, positive, hope, (rubbed in with some very hypocritical sanctimony) is attractive - maybe not a bad thing... until it lets them down

[rendelharris]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I think they don't really remember the 70s, the

> IRA, what nationalised industries were actually

> like, pre-Berlin Wall falling politics

I don't really see how the IRA and the Cold War can be blamed on the Labour government of the '70s!

[????]

Nope, didn't say that but the bombings etc isn't real to them - so, so what if Corbyn talked to them (added to the fact that they generally, and laughably, bought into his roll as a peacemaker).

Resonated with the old meaningless to the younger ones

[JoeLeg]

The problem is a lot of the "yoof" support for Labour comes from a loathing of the Tories as much as anything else. I disagree with a lot of Tory policy (not all of it), but my reasons for not voting Tory are very different to those half a lifetime ago. I don't hate the Tories, or think they're out to screw the working man, I just disagree with certain views they hold. Like many people I speak to these days, I feel we're slowly leaving the days of ideology based on 'left' and 'right', and I wonder if the emergence of parties like UKIP isn't a taste of things to come, as in we may see more, smaller political groups emerge, each speaking to various niches.

Anyway, I feel the Tory party could do a lot more to convince the youth vote that they aren't out to get them. It seems to me that they've pretty much abandoned that ground to Labour, which I think is silly.

[DaveR]

"Labour will walk an election sooner or later"

This the big question, isn't it? although the story of the election quite rightly was a disaster for May/Tories and a triumph for Corbyn/Labour, the result in basic terms was a Tory win - short of a majority but more seats than Labour + SNP + Lib Dem + Plaid + Greens i.e. the effective opposition. May is going to have a job being an effective PM but there's no reason to think a minority Labour govt would even get a Queen's Speech through the Commons.

So the question for the Labour party is, can we get another 60 seats with Corbyn and his manifesto if we really all pull together?

The questions for the Tories are a bit more substantial - where can we find new leader who's not likely to be very bit as unpopular as May, and also what are our policies going to be now it's clear nobody likes the current ones? Plus WTF is our position on Brexit?

Ironically prob best all round if May stays on for a while at least and we get govt back up and running. Is there really any appetite outside of activists for another GE?

[Loz]

JoeLeg Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> But thinking that a spoilt ballot paper is a political process is just retarded.

>

> Like Rendell, I adhere to Churchill on this. It's flawed, but better than the alternatives.

Actually, I'd give him credit for at least turning up, rather than sitting on his backside, not voting at all and yet still moaning about politics. It can be the equivalent of 'none of the above'.

And a spoilt ballot can definitely be a political message. I remember a referendum in the 80's where many people considered neither option on the ballot paper acceptable and nearly half the ballots were spoilt. That sent a very political message (which the government of the time ignored, but still...)

[steveo]

'until it lets them down'

I wonder when they'll twig: when we give Brussels 100 million Euros? When we have to go to the IMF? When a Russian aircraft carrier slips into Faslane?

[Lordship 516]

Already the lunatic fringe putting their boot in...

Orange Order asks DUP to put Drumcree march on wishlist in May talks

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/12/orange-order-asks-dup-to-put-drumcree-march-on-wishlist-in-may-talks

[Loz]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Labour will walk an election sooner or later

Well, yes, as cycles work that way.

Corbyn has lost a lot of the distrust he had and I suspect he might win another one held in the next 12 months. Though 50 seats is still a big loss, it will be almost impossible for May to get any of the lost seats back.

Though you could also say that it would be pretty difficult for the Tories to have another election campaign quite as inept as this one. Lesson one: don't piss off your core vote.

Boris taking over might make a difference. We'd then have an election with both main party leaders making wild promises they almost certainly can't deliver.

[Loz]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Corbyn has agreed to renew Trident as that's what the Labour party conference voted for. Nothing to

> do with betraying his principles, it's accepting the democratic decision of his party.

You don't see a person who has been a member of the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament for three decades leading a party that will renew a nuclear weapons system as betraying his own principles?

That's... erm... flexible thinking.

[JoeLeg]

http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-book-of-jeremy-corbyn?mbid=social_facebook_paid_cm_corbynsbook

Probably about as valid an analysis as any right now...

[red devil]

DaveR Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The questions for the Tories are a bit more

> substantial - where can we find new leader who's

> not likely to be very bit as unpopular as May...

Before the election May was quite popular, certainly had much better approval ratings that Corbs. It was her appalling campaigning style that done for her, she was a fish out of water. Corbs on the other hand is a lifelong campaigner and was totally in his element. The Tories need someone much better at campaigning, and the only one I can think of who has a recent track record is Boris...

[Loz]

red devil Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Corbs on the other hand is a lifelong campaigner and was

> totally in his element.

*After* he relented and did some media training.

The man is a walking advertisement for some consultancy somewhere - they did a remarkable job.

[red devil]

It will be interesting to see how Corbs performs at the next PMQ's, where previously he's been useless...

[Lordship 516]

May is still only working for the Conservative party interests

"I've got us into this mess, I'll get us out of it."

"MP says PM pledged that the party would help colleagues who lost their seats - some of whom are in financial difficulties"

Can they not retrain & get Universal Credit - even visit the local foodbank??

She has apologized many many times to the conservatives but she has yet to apologize to the electorate for her shambles...

[Loz]

Lordship 516 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> She has apologized many many times to the

> conservatives but she has yet to apologize to the

> electorate for her shambles...

You want her to apologise to the electorate for them not voting for her enough to give her a majority? She got more votes than Corbyn - does he have to apologise as well?

You have a really weird viewpoint of the world.