8 June

[Green Goose]

Spot the difference....

http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t643/savedelhi/Public%20Album/Corbyn_zpsuwluzhlo.jpg

The one on the left is wearing a tie.

[Earl Aelfheah]

The right are also obsessed with describing anything remotely in the centre or to the left of politics as communist. It's silly really. A mixed economy and a democratic society is nothing to do with communism.

[Green Goose]

Rah x3

You are possibly to young to remember the Labour Govt and the Loonie Left in the 70's and the never-ending strikes in the State sector. Now Corbyn wants to take us back to all that by nationalising:-

Rail

Water

Mail

National Grid

Electricity Suppliers

Gas Suppliers

To make matters worse he wants to borrow and spend on a scale that would dwarf the borrowing that Gordon Brown did, which knackered the economy and left a massive debt for our kids and grandchilderen to payoff.

JC's a nice enough bloke - a pacifist and socialist idealist but I wouldn't even let him manage my childrens pocket money , let alone the Exchequer.

[Earl Aelfheah]

You're perfectly entitled to your views, but if you think he's going to usher in a communist regime, well I think your mistaken (to put it kindly).

[Earl Aelfheah]

...there aren't 'reds under the bed' and despite what the more hysterical papers might say, Corbyn is not any kind of 'extremist'. It's like insisting that May is a fascist.

[Earl Aelfheah]

...and whilst I'm sure some on social media might say that of her, no left wing paper or Labour MP would put that forward as a serious allegation. The mainstream right is ridiculous with the hyperbole when it comes to Corbyn.

[Green Goose]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You're perfectly entitled to your views, but if

> you think he's going to usher in a communist

> regime, well I think your mistaken (to put it

> kindly).

Here's a little profile I came across earlier.

JC has just drafted in Andrew Murray to bolster his team

Murray has been a member of the Communist Party for 40 years. He is an outspoken apologist for the Soviet Union ?even once suggesting that brutal dictator Joseph Stalin had been unfairly maligned ? and expressing 'solidarity' with North Korea, the most repressive dictatorship on Earth.Murray joined the communist party aged 18, in 1976, and after school, he decided on a career in journalism and worked for - where else? - the Soviet state-owned Novosti news agency. He then graduated to the Morning Star - house journal of the British Communist Party.

Some of the articles he has written for blogs have now mysteriously disappeared. But even those that remain provide a startling insight into his politics.

He also wrote: 'We need urgently to raise the level of our Leninist education. Everything we are talking about, the imperialist crisis, inter-imperialist conflict, war, political strategy and tactics, are Leninist issues. We need to do far more to study Marxism-Leninism.'

In another Morning Star article written days after September 11 attacks in America, Murray described them as 'landmarks in world history'. He added: 'Imperialism is the terrorism of the powerful, breeding night and day the revenge of the weak.'

In 2006 Murray gave the annual 'Marx oration' at Karl Marx's grave in Highgate Cemetery, north London - in which he railed against the 'world war' he said was being waged by the West against countries such as Cuba, Venezuela, Iran, Syria and North Korea, who were being 'threatened' by Western powers..

JC just needs a few more like Murray around him and he will soon have even more in common with Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin et al

[Earl Aelfheah]

Yeah OK. Democracy itself is at peril if Labour get in. 🙄

[Earl Aelfheah]

...kind of just proved my point btw.

[Green Goose]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Yeah OK. Democracy itself is at peril if Labour

> get in. 🙄

Possibly, but investment, industry, utilities, savings and services are in severe danger. Not to mention the tax burden.

Sterling exchange rate will slump immediately and then steadily deteriorate as the national debt soars.

Foreign inward investment will cease and there will be a flight of capital to overseas markets. The UK will be stuffed if the unholy alliance of the extreme Labour left and Len McLusky's lot get the levers of power.

There will be a repeat of the 70's "Brain Drain" where our brightest and most productive fled overseas rather than be taxed to death by a Labour govt. Industrial strife will return with avengeance.

I've been there, seen it, smelled it, felyt it and suffered under it. It stinks. I certainly dont want to see it again. I for one will certainly switch my investments to foreign businesses and with it the tax I pay.

But maybe you are too young to remember the 70's and the 3 day week?

[jaywalker]

Well, if there was ever a self-defeating post Green Goose...

The 3 day week arose under a brittle, control-freaky, awkward-with-other-people, dogmatic Conservative PM - Heath. They seem to have rather a penchant for such personality types, don't they? In the end, having caused chaos, he called an election in 1974 (oh, the irony, before he needed to) with 'who governs Britain?' - and got a rather clear answer. Now you blame the workers for what happened. But monetarists would not (read Friedman - 'inflation is always and everywhere a monetary phenomenon' NOT a union problem). See, for this election, the excoriating judgement of the Financial Times on the May campaign and what, if it was implemented, it would mean for Business Britain. And who inflated the money supply before the 3 day week? Oh yes, a Tory Chancellor - Barber.

Your true blindness is that you cannot see that May is a protectionist, reactionary, and completely out-of-touch do-gooder (no intervention uncalled for, for I am in the right). Her actual policies (those she still has, given that most have been retracted) are suicidal for business; they are not at all Conservative.

BTW, in response to your picture, if you were to look at Althusser's "Lenin and Philosophy" you would learn something (he condescends, snivelling; but you would). Do not confuse Lenin with Stalin, do not think the Soviet Union was socialist (he lectures; well he does).

[malumbu]

Give GG a break will you - clearly this post got delayed in the post as it was intended before the referendum where he is just predicting what would happen if we left the EU.

Thought the Question Time the night before was more informative where Clegg, Barry Gardener and he SNP person were all talking about that damned elephant in the room, Brexit and better still actually defining it as a political rather than economic decision (ie we did not vote out to improve our overall wealth.

Anyway the Breixteers like a week pound.

[Green Goose]

jaywalker Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Now you blame the

> workers for what happened. But monetarists would

> not (read Friedman - 'inflation is always and

> everywhere a monetary phenomenon' NOT a union

> problem).

You are wrong on inflation. When the Labour govt got in in 1974 it increased miners' wages by 35% immediately after the February 1974 election. In February 1975, a further increase of 35% was awarded. That certainly drove inflation.

>

> you cannot see that

> May is a protectionist, reactionary, and

> completely out-of-touch do-gooder (no intervention

> uncalled for, for I am in the right). Her actual

> policies are not at all Conservative.

I will surprise you by agreeing. She is not well nd not up to the job. The Tory party will topple her before the end of June, no matter what the election result.

>

> BTW, in response to your picture, if you were to

> look at Althusser's "Lenin and Philosophy" you

> would learn something (he condescends, snivelling;

> but you would). Do not confuse Lenin with Stalin,

> do not think the Soviet Union was socialist (he

> lectures; well he does).

I've been to the USSR as it used to be and done business there. Seen it and researched it.

Did you ever see it in the flesh under communism?

I agree that Lenin and Stalin were rather different. Lenin wasn't too deranged and didn't kill too many of his own people but Stalin did it for around 20,000,000. Yes, 20 Million, not to mention the Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Latvians etc etc.

The worst was what he did to his fellow Russians who had been taken prisoner by Germany and who therefor became tainted by exposure to Western culture. Roosevelt was naive enough to agrre to let Stalin have them back in return for the Americans who were liberated from German POW camps by the Russians. Many of the Russian POWs committed suicde rather than return to Russia becaus they knew what was in store.

Interesting also is the fact that when Russia liberated the American and British prisoners from German POW camps, they held on to them for months as bargaining chips. Also they would not allow them to be repatriated directly to the west but instead via the Black Sea ports to Turkey annd Iran and then on to the UK.

I could write a book on Stalin but it wouldn't make pretty reading.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Well there it is. Vote Labour and the UK will be like the USSR under Stalin. You can't say you haven't been warned.

[Seabag]

Green Goose Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Spot the difference....

>

>

> http://i1318.photobucket.com/albums/t643/savedelhi

> /Public%20Album/Corbyn_zpsuwluzhlo.jpg

>

> The one on the left is wearing a tie.

Jeremy does Pilates ?

[Alan Medic]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/02/brexit-scaremongers-proved-right-economy-slump-inflation?CMP=share_btn_tw

Couldn't agree more with this article on the 'scaremongers' of Brexit being proved right.

[Alan Medic]

From the FT

[JohnL]

There was a little "We love Corbyn" chant in the Great Exhibition late last night

Awwwww :):)

[JohnL]

Next weekend at the EDT

:)

[pato]

someone already did it few months ago.. i d like to remind you the story with the EU and UK as lots of people have short memory..

UK: Can we join?

EU: nope..

UK: Go on, pls

EU: ok then

UK: We want a rebate..

EU: here is Your rebate

UK: WE WANT A SINGLE MARKET

EU:Here is a single market

UK WE WANT EU EXPANSION TO THE EAST

EU: here is the EU expansion to east

UK: we want opt-outs on Schengen, on social policy,on the charter of fundamental rights,on the euro..

EU: here are all Your opt-outs

...pause...

UK: Ok, bye..

[jaywalker]

Green Goose Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> jaywalker Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Now you blame the

> > workers for what happened. But monetarists

> would

> > not (read Friedman - 'inflation is always and

> > everywhere a monetary phenomenon' NOT a union

> > problem).

>

> You are wrong on inflation. When the Labour govt

> got in in 1974 it increased miners' wages by 35%

> immediately after the February 1974 election. In

> February 1975, a further increase of 35% was

> awarded. That certainly drove inflation.

No, I am right on inflation. And I am right on inflation by the Tory party's own lights (as exemplified by Thatcher in her Medium Term Financial Strategy - which recognised that inflation is, precisely, a monetary phenomenon. That is why she highlighted Friedman's books in three different colours each evening before bed). In the early and mid-1970s even Keynesians (like me) agreed that monetary growth rates were so great that the simply quantity theory of money applied. The mistake you make is to confuse a metonymy (here an adjunct) with a model. Wage-increases-happen-during- inflation is not a model - wage increases in such circumstances are simply a relay. Spotted any quantitative easing and inflation recently by the way? When the wage increases occur (as they will) do not then blame them for inflation.

>Do not confuse Lenin with

> Stalin,

> > do not think the Soviet Union was socialist (he

> > lectures; well he does).

>

> I've been to the USSR as it used to be and done

> business there. Seen it and researched it.

>

> Did you ever see it in the flesh under communism?

Yes, I went to Moscow during that period. Ghastly (particularly the cock-roaches in my hotel bedroom, the absence of anything decent to eat, and a state of barely controlled paranoia in the population). To describe this as 'communism' is I fear an error.

> I agree that Lenin and Stalin were rather

> different. Lenin wasn't too deranged and didn't

> kill too many of his own people but Stalin did it

> for around 20,000,000. Yes, 20 Million, not to

> mention the Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Latvians etc

> etc.

>

> The worst was what he did to his fellow Russians

> who had been taken prisoner by Germany and who

> therefor became tainted by exposure to Western

> culture. Roosevelt was naive enough to agrre to

> let Stalin have them back in return for the

> Americans who were liberated from German POW camps

> by the Russians. Many of the Russian POWs

> committed suicde rather than return to Russia

> becaus they knew what was in store.

>

> Interesting also is the fact that when Russia

> liberated the American and British prisoners from

> German POW camps, they held on to them for months

> as bargaining chips. Also they would not allow

> them to be repatriated directly to the west but

> instead via the Black Sea ports to Turkey annd

> Iran and then on to the UK.

> I could write a book on Stalin but it wouldn't

> make pretty reading.

Which, presumably, might be why I wrote 'Do not confuse Lenin with Stalin'? (patronising git that I am).

[Green Goose]

pato Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> someone already did it few months ago.. i d like

> to remind you the story with the EU and UK as lots

> of people have short memory..

>

> UK: Can we join?

> EU: nope..

> UK: Go on, pls

> EU: ok then

> UK: We want a rebate..

> EU: here is Your rebate

He Pato, you told us onlyy half the story. Here's the full version...

UK: Go on, pls

ECM: OK then

UK: You are ripping us off. We want a refund.

ECM: here is your ?rebate?

EU: We changed our name to European Union

UK: OK

EU: We want an exchange rate mechanism.

UK: Sorry but that would have major problems (for UK, Greece, Italy, Spain.)

EU: OK you can opt out.

EU: We want a common currency.

UK: Sorry, but that will have problems because you don?t control spending in each country.

EU: OK, you can opt out.

EU: We want open borders across Europe.

UK: Bad idea. Not keen on that.

EU: OK you can opt out.

EU: Come for a jolly to Lisbon and sign this new agreement.

Gordon Brown: I daren?t tell the UK about this. http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/52947/Sold-out-to-Europe-Brown-makes-Queen-sign-away-our-sovereignty

EU: Your legal system is no longer sovereign. We have supremacy on legal matters.

UK: Gordon Brown keeps quiet. UKIP say we should have a referendum.

EU: We have new rights to social security, housing assistance, health care and environmental protection

UK: Gordon Brown keeps quiet. UKIP say we should have a referendum.

EU: We now national employment policies, and laws dictating workers' social security and social protection rights and working conditions.

UK: Gordon Brown keeps quiet. UKIP say we should have a referendum.

EU: Our unelected commission will propose all new legislation.

UK: Gordon Brown keeps quiet. UKIP say we should have a referendum.

EU: We have an economic crisis in Greece. We will impose our power to apply austerity.

UK: Gordon Brown keeps quiet. UKIP say we should have a referendum.

EU: We will have ever closer union i.e. more powers to Brussels.

UK: David Cameron keeps quiet. UKIP say we should have a referendum.

EU: The UK military will come under Brussels control. Bugger NATO.

UK: David Cameron keeps quiet. UKIP say we should have a referendum.

EU: You must pay more money to fund Brussels corruption and our gravy train.

UK: David Cameron keeps quiet. UKIP say we should have a referendum.

EU: The Euro is going pear shaped. Can we have more money?

UK: Sorry, but I have got to let the UK have a referendum. The natives are rebelling!

EU: If they vote out, then you can swing it on a second referendum. We?ve done that before.

UK: OK sounds good. We will have a vote.

EU: They voted out. Quelle surprise!

EU: We will make you sorry, ?pour encourage les autres?

UK: Sounds like Hotel California.. ?You can check out, but you can never leave.?

[Green Goose]

jaywalker Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Which, presumably, might be why I wrote 'Do not

> confuse Lenin with Stalin'? (patronising git that

> I am).

Never have but both had a lot in common when it came to employing force and terror tactics.

Lenin set up the Cheka and used brutality on the population as a whole so as to protect the Party.

Stalin used Terror against members of own party and against Politburo so as to further his ambitions. Not forgetting the 20 million he killed as mentioned earlier. Mao achieved about the same headcount if you count the deaths through famine caused by failure of his agriculatural policies. Very similar to where Stalin went wrong.

[jaywalker]

GG, increasingly I get lost with the direction of your threads, but I think I'll steer clear of discussions of terror today, if you don't mind. (For the avoidance of any doubt, I'm a pacifist and hate terrorists).

Meanwhile the BBC now have a red dot and a blue dot alongside each other on their poll tracker:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39856354

The poll was taken shortly after the Dimbleby 'debate' fiasco and the Corbyn 'pringle' triumph.

[pato]

Green Goose Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> pato Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > someone already did it few months ago.. i d

> like

> > to remind you the story with the EU and UK as

> lots

> > of people have short memory..

> >

> > UK: Can we join?

> > EU: nope..

> > UK: Go on, pls

> > EU: ok then

> > UK: We want a rebate..

> > EU: here is Your rebate

>

> He Pato, you told us onlyy half the story. Here's

> the full version...

>

> UK: Go on, pls

> ECM: OK then

> UK: You are ripping us off. We want a refund.

> ECM: here is your ?rebate?

> EU: We changed our name to European Union

> UK: OK

> EU: We want an exchange rate mechanism.

> UK: Sorry but that would have major problems (for

> UK, Greece, Italy, Spain.)

> EU: OK you can opt out.

> EU: We want a common currency.

> UK: Sorry, but that will have problems because you

> don?t control spending in each country.

> EU: OK, you can opt out.

> EU: We want open borders across Europe.

> UK: Bad idea. Not keen on that.

> EU: OK you can opt out.

> EU: Come for a jolly to Lisbon and sign this new

> agreement.

> Gordon Brown: I daren?t tell the UK about this.

> http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/52947/Sold-out-to

> -Europe-Brown-makes-Queen-sign-away-our-sovereignt

> y

> EU: Your legal system is no longer sovereign. We

> have supremacy on legal matters.

> UK: Gordon Brown keeps quiet. UKIP say we should

> have a referendum.

> EU: We have new rights to social security, housing

> assistance, health care and environmental

> protection

> UK: Gordon Brown keeps quiet. UKIP say we should

> have a referendum.

> EU: We now national employment policies, and laws

> dictating workers' social security and social

> protection rights and working conditions.

> UK: Gordon Brown keeps quiet. UKIP say we should

> have a referendum.

> EU: Our unelected commission will propose all new

> legislation.

> UK: Gordon Brown keeps quiet. UKIP say we should

> have a referendum.

> EU: We have an economic crisis in Greece. We will

> impose our power to apply austerity.

> UK: Gordon Brown keeps quiet. UKIP say we should

> have a referendum.

> EU: We will have ever closer union i.e. more

> powers to Brussels.

> UK: David Cameron keeps quiet. UKIP say we should

> have a referendum.

> EU: The UK military will come under Brussels

> control. Bugger NATO.

> UK: David Cameron keeps quiet. UKIP say we should

> have a referendum.

> EU: You must pay more money to fund Brussels

> corruption and our gravy train.

> UK: David Cameron keeps quiet. UKIP say we should

> have a referendum.

> EU: The Euro is going pear shaped. Can we have

> more money?

> UK: Sorry, but I have got to let the UK have a

> referendum. The natives are rebelling!

> EU: If they vote out, then you can swing it on a

> second referendum. We?ve done that before.

> UK: OK sounds good. We will have a vote.

> EU: They voted out. Quelle surprise!

> EU: We will make you sorry, ?pour encourage les

> autres?

> UK: Sounds like Hotel California.. ?You can check

> out, but you can never leave.?

Whatever you believe is true.....

Just Do Us a favor now..will you?? (without U Turns possibly..)

In the end while you discussing nhs, taxes and fantasy euro zone history I think it s simple as that:

Chose what side you wanna be in this election and as i said before no Uturns.

You might wanna stay with Trump, Russia, south arabia and Philippines or on the other side with all the civilised ppl..

Simple as that!

You can believe all You want, including your fantasy history, but there would not been refugees and death if you and US weren t making billion selling weapons through south arabia..

there will be no terror, families destroyed and innocent lives lost here in such a beautiful and amazing city as London if You weren t there with Trump killing, in the past few months, as many INNOCENT lives (datas from the white house it was on the guardian on friday) as in the past 2 years (or something like that)

In Your fantasy trips have you ever noticed the more innocents we kill over there the more terror attacks and victims we have over here...? Past few months, since trump say it all..

On my side I fantasise about a fair world with values over money. A place where ppl can move study, retire, make business anywhere they want as far as stick to the rules and values of the country. A world where ppl can speak languages can confront learn and talk

For this reason I personally wanna stay with France sweden canada norway italy portugal etc etc ..as pretty much half of the uk

If You wanna stay with trump south arabia philippines russia it s in your rights and in your freedom to do so and vote in this sense

So now this country, a country that I love indeed, People with whom a share values, lives and deeply feel part of it are called to an election to say what they want (not what Theresa May says You want). Well before (although i share the probs with you) nhs pensions universities etc etc YOU got to say which side of the world you are and wanna be

NO EXCUSES NOW and hopefully no U turns anymore

Stop the fantasies get real. it s not the empire anymore. Germany alone (+ the rest of it) has a way stronger economy, get a reality check. we are in 2017. it s not the case to build walls...we have been fighting to put them down actually. Our relatives died in wars over borders and walls

Stay with Trump south arabia philippines or with the little good left in this world but then no changing your minds anymore pls it has been far too many years.You might have noticed you were in Europe with Your own rules. The only country by the way..

in this sense, with all respect and sincere good feelings, I m sure all the 27 countries would agree You have been more of a problem than an asset unfortunately

Also pls i d like to remind you when You are in your fantasy trips, to try and recall how much money depressed areas in the UK have received from Europe in the past decades

You ll discover Scotland(love it), Wales, where they voted to leave, has taken as much as those est european countries you wanna get rid of now..

Anyway whatever walls your friends are gonna build for you to live in, they ll be much easier to put down in a few years than the walls I see in certain minds

with no hard feelings. love and respect from my side

wishing you the best

PS for those wanting to leave as for, values identity and culture i understand you very much and agree with You on one hand. on the other hand i understand going back it s not really possible in 2017 for many reason not last the internet

I d like to reming all of you that it s the way it is we all speak languages travel etc etc.

In spain there are entire towns for english. in many parts of spain the locals had to learn english in order to comunicate with you and make you feel welcome.

In ibiza You find easier an english breakfast than a cappuccino or a tortilla. we live global if you haven t noticed it

Perhaps I also liked it better before but ehy...going back is possible only in your fantasy. we are not going back, it s simply impossible and nobody wants it really. You might wanna take a pizza away from an english but than...he/she knows pizza he can t decide to forget that and..he/she will find his way..