8 June

[Earl Aelfheah]

The Conservative manifesto leaves little wiggle room when it comes to Brexit - it makes it clear that the UK will leave the customs union as well as the single market.

Again setting an arbitrary and repeatedly missed target to bring down immigration to under a hundred thousand is just stupid, with the commitment to make it more difficult for International students to come and study in the UK being particularly self defeating. International students bring billions into the UK economy and are a great source of future UK 'soft power' in the world.

The insistence on expanding selective schooling, despite evidence that it does nothing to promote social mobility is just an example of poor, dogmatic policy making.

All in all, it's rather depressing. I cannot see how any of this is going to promote an outward looking, meritocratic, 'Global Britain'.

[JohnL]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> I struggle to see how Theresa May is particularly

> "left wing" even by Tory standards, but happy to

> be educated. In some ways she seems to have taken

> the party to the right with her brand of

> neo-nationalism.

>

> A real shame that the Lib Dems aren't making more

> of an inroad.. the main two parties have both

> abandoned the centre ground, and along with Brexit

> (hugely unpopular with half of the country), this

> should be their best chance since the party's

> inception. Poor leader.

Her interventionism I'd say. She isn't a free marketeer or a neo liberal. As someone once said she could be a Statist.

The nationalistic stuff is repulsive and designed to appeal to UKIP supporters IMHO.

[JohnL]

jaywalker Wrote:

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> Looks like the May control-freakery is finally

> getting the better of her. The Tory manifesto is -

> how to put this delicately - a little off kilter.

>

>

> I fear her isolationism from her own supporters

> will destroy her. She cannot listen to good ideas

> or abandon her id?e fixe in the face of

> overwhelming argument to the contrary - for

> example the immigration target to continue to

> include overseas students (what?!! - the great

> majority of the Cabinet tried to get her to

> abandon this stupidity). She seems unconsciously

> to have assumed the divine right of her heroine

> (Elizabeth I) - I very much doubt she would get a

> majority of Tory MPs voting for much of this

> nonsense if they were exercising their conscience.

>

>

> Perhaps intending Tory voters could explain which

> parts of the manifesto they find attractive and

> why?

Even if she wins she won't last long - the Tories will

use her for Brexit then get rid

[red devil]

Agree. Like most politicians, May is an opportunist. In the recent One Show her husband let it slip that she had wanted to be PM for a long time. She saw her chance and took it. For the Hard Brexiteers like Gove and Fox she is the acceptable face of Brexit. As the Spectator article said yesterday, they will put up with the policies they don't agree with as long as it delivers Brexit. They can then change the poliices laters...

[Otta]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I struggle to see how Theresa May is particularly

> "left wing" even by Tory standards, but happy to

> be educated. In some ways she seems to have taken

> the party to the right with her brand of

> neo-nationalism.

Agreed. Joke to say she's anywhere near left.

> A real shame that the Lib Dems aren't making more

> of an inroad.. the main two parties have both

> abandoned the centre ground, and along with Brexit

> (hugely unpopular with half of the country), this

> should be their best chance since the party's

> inception. Poor leader.

THIS

I really wanted the LD's to sweep me off of my feet. Hasn't happened at all.

[Jeremy]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Agreed. Joke to say she's anywhere near left.

JohnL pointed out that she advocates greater intervention in businesses that her predecessors, which I accept is a step back from the recent neoliberal ethos. I guess it's one of the few facets of her leadership that I cautiously welcome. But I'm not sure it makes her categorically less right wing.

> I really wanted the LD's to sweep me off of my feet. Hasn't happened at all.

It's not so much that they're heading in the wrong direction, but they need a charismatic leader who can give the party some get-up-and-go, a stronger identity, get people talking about them, and convince us that they're a serious alternative.

[JohnL]

YouGov poll today shows Conservatives 45 Labour 32

Corbyn still closing the gap slightly.

[Earl Aelfheah]

'I like Corbyn's policies but how is he going to pay for it'

[robbin]

You forgot the following additional revenue streams...

Collecting teeth from Tooth Fairy stockpiles and selling on market - ?6.3 bn

Lucky Heather - ?9.6 bn (or ?19.6 bn - Diane to confirm)

Attendance tax for admission to test matches (home supporters only) - ?4.1 bn

Free drinks (Mon-Weds) for Momentum members (-?86 m)

Compulsory flat charge for Unison non-members - ?5.1 bn

Sales of Peckham Spring Water - ?12 bn

Sorted.

[red devil]

Where's the cost of Brexit in that list? Labour aren't reversing it so the ?60bn that's been quoted by Hammond needs to be accounted for somehow...

[robbin]

Sorry.

Father Christmas - ?60 bn

[jaywalker]

For the first time today I saw a glimmer of light. The Tory manifesto was so bad even the Daily Mail had to think up an obviously less than adulatory headline (still an amazingly stupid one), and the media are beginning to report that the plans for paying for old age and dementia care feature a hugely regressive kind of wealth tax. Then there is the extraordinary 'no timetable' nonsense for the immigration limit, and the failure to cost even the paltry few policies that are in the document (which is pretty sickening given what they said about the Labour manifesto). Further, it looks like UKIP and the Libdems are heading for oblivion - the latter is particularly sad, but there it is. The polls between Tories and Labour will close sharply this weekend.

On the arbitrary nature of the care-tax (and the distortions it is likely to cause) this is a very good account:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39977559

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

"not so much that they're heading in the wrong direction, but they need a charismatic leader who can give the party some get-up-and-go, a stronger identity"

It's hard to have a strong identity when you're a centrist party.

[jaywalker]

The truth of that is 'in a two-party system' which is also therefore its error.

[Alan Medic]

If this election is about Brexit then there isn't much difference between the Conservative and Labour approach to it. It appears some people think the UK can remain in the Single Market and curb immigration. That's not possible. After that it's about different ways of arranging the furniture that's left in the sitting room.

Only the LibDems have offered a 2nd referendum on the Brexit deal. Whoever the 48% are should really be voting for them. But as stated here,they don't seem to be making any impact in the campaign so far. I hope that changes.

[TE44]

It's not about Brexit for me. Brexit feels

like a symptom of all the lies, hatred and control

that's become part of our society. I like Corbyn

for being honest and sincere but I won't be voting

Labour, I'd rather have them in than the Tories

But not enough to vote tactically.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

jaywalker Wrote:

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> The truth of that is 'in a two-party system' which

> is also therefore its error.

I don't entirely understand your comment but would also point out that the Lib Dems don't have a strong identity in Wales or Scotland either, which are not two party systems. Neither are euro elections.

[red devil]

Wasn't there a poll recently that said half of Remain voters don't want a 2nd referendum and just want whoever's in Gov to just get on with the Brexit process? You also have to remember that the referendum was a binary vote, a straightforward yes or no. A GE is much more complicated, there are many issues, plus there will always be a hardcore of people who will vote along traditional party lines regardless. It's too simplistic to expect the Lib Dems to automatically pick up Remain voters...

[JohnL]

red devil Wrote:

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> Wasn't there a poll recently that said half of

> Remain voters don't want a 2nd referendum and just

> want whoever's in Gov to just get on with the

> Brexit process? You also have to remember that the

> referendum was a binary vote, a straightforward

> yes or no. A GE is much more complicated, there

> are many issues, plus there will always be a

> hardcore of people who will vote along traditional

> party lines regardless. It's too simplistic to

> expect the Lib Dems to automatically pick up

> Remain voters...

Yes

They call them Re-Leavers and (even though I'm hard

remain) I understand their feelings.

There's no way out of this mess so just get it over with

then it either works or it doesn't. At least once we know

we can make further decisions.

May is bracing us for 5 years of hard times it seems.

[JohnL]

Alan Medic Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If this election is about Brexit then there isn't

> much difference between the Conservative and

> Labour approach to it. It appears some people

> think the UK can remain in the Single Market and

> curb immigration. That's not possible. After that

> it's about different ways of arranging the

> furniture that's left in the sitting room.

>

> Only the LibDems have offered a 2nd referendum on

> the Brexit deal. Whoever the 48% are should really

> be voting for them. But as stated here,they don't

> seem to be making any impact in the campaign so

> far. I hope that changes.

"Mr Davis said: "We're aiming to bring it down to sustainable levels as soon as is economically viable. And the aim is to do it in a way that doesn't cause labour shortages, that allows us to train people up to do the jobs.""

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39975187

Some level at Some time in the future and there's a get out clause anyway :) :) :)

I could do that.

[red devil]

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> There's no way out of this mess so just get it

> over with

> then it either works or it doesn't. At least once

> we know

> we can make further decisions.

>

> May is bracing us for 5 years of hard times it

> seems.

Definitely. Whereas there was no mention of ''No deal is better than a bad deal'' in the A50 letter, up it popped in the Tory manifesto, and her speech at the launch was decidedly gloomy on the subject, which usually means in politician speak, it's going to be really gloomy times ahead...

[malumbu]

I expect that most posting here feel passionately about leaving Europe, many like me will be in denial for the next two years, others are being more pragmatic, and some welcoming it. I don't think that we we are representive of the nation as a whole where there are no doubt many 'weak' remainers and leavers who just want to get on with it all, and a fair number may not even be bothered to vote in the GE.

Don't take this as a sign that it was a good decision to leave.

[Alan Medic]

I don't expect the remain voters to vote for the Lib Dems. In this constituency I expect I'll vote for Labour. This isn't just any old GE. What happens will affect the country for years to come. In my opinion, in a bad way. I'm clutching at straws that the country won't commit suicide.

[jaywalker]

The need for charismatic leaders (at least in the Daily Mail age) really tells you all you need to know about parliamentary representative government on a first-past-the-post electoral system. An uneducated public who mirror a 'she's just like me' misrecognition. Not really much different from what secures Erdogan, Putin, or other reactionary types.

[malumbu]

Wow, perhaps a letter to the Dailty Mail (angry of ED), I'm not taking the pee rather that would be an interesting experiment.