Miranda Hart- Superb Comedienne

[RosieH]

Messing with you, man, YOU MASSIVE PEDANT. C'mere while I kiss you.

[Atticus]

The Trip was was a load self-indulgent magnificence!I loved every single, subtle minute of it!!!

[mockney piers]

Suggesting words have meaning is just bloody semantics!!

[ruffers]

And as for Miranda? I watch it every time taking off my cynical hat and leaving my "make me laugh" underhat on, and it does. I lol (as I believe the young people say).

It's not big or clever but hey, it's funny, to me anyway, along with Not Going Out which is where I first saw her.

[Huguenot]

Sorry Rosie, what I meant is that banning words looks like a frenzied case of literary whack-a-mole. Another one will always spring up to take it's place.

I think it's unedifying and somewhat diminishing for women to engage in such a pointless pursuit. It puts the cause back.

[TillieTrotter]

I finally got talked into watching a few episodes last night and I found it utterly unfunny and cringeable. Horses for courses.

[RosieH]

Dear god man, you can be ridiculously patronising. If you think trying to address gender bias in language, something important to a great many women, is a "pointless pursuit" then what are you being, other than diminishing?

Language, thought and perception are inextricably bound: just because you, Mockney and D_C don't subscribe to the notion of the "little lady" doesn't mean that thousands / millions of other men (and some women) don't. If you think the notion that women are somehow weaker or to be protected - an idea that is perpetuated and reinforced by lots of commonplace language, including the diminutive 'comedienne' - is in no way related to sexual harassment or glass ceilings, then you're a great big mental.

I'm not talking about banning any words, and I'm certainly not for 'wimmin' and its ilk - I'm talking about moving away from using certain words that patronise or belittle (however well-meaningly). Was the move from 'coloured' to 'black' also unedifying, diminishing and pointless?

Anyway, it's Christmas - so for you my alpha-male combatant, a libation :)-D. And I'm looking forward to not-laughing at the inevitable Miranda Christmas special, where Miranda falls on top of a Christmas tree and a man who is way out of her league inexplicably finds it sexy.

[Huguenot]

I wasn't aware that there had been a change from coloured to black, and I'm certainly not aware of any change in attitude that it created.

I don't think comedienne is diminishing - I think it's a female comic.

But if other people do think it's diminishing it's not because of the word, it's because people find that female comics have a series of attributes that mark them as different to male comics.

Hence if you rid us of the word comedienne, another word will pop up that provides a vehicle to communicate whatever it is that these people find unique about female comics.

It's like the moron, cretin, flid, spastic, retard thing. They were all words that originally had technical meanings whose use was subsumed to the requirements of Joe Bloggs. Ban one and people just find another word to communicate the same set of attributes.

I can understand that it's important to some people, but I'm trying to be honest by saying that all the evidence is that it doesn't work.

[SeanMacGabhann]

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somehow I'm finding this very hard to believe.

[Huguenot]

If anything I thought it was the other way around.

I'm not aware that the two terms have different attributes. If you have a downer on people due to their skin colour it's not going to go away because you express it with different vowels and consonants.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Maybe not, but what you can do is go some way to restoring parity. It?s why racists can?t go around using the n word in public anymore (PC gone MAD!!!! Innit) and yes they are still racists, but crucially, black people don?t have to go about their business feeling quite so belittled. A small victory? Maybe but better than what went before

So for all of my teasing with Rosie and others earlier in the thread, I do know what they are trying to see. Bless ?em

(kidding people, kidding)

It?s a funny old debate and one which leaves one open to accusations from anti-liberals of hand-wringing etc etc. And I know plenty of women who have no truck with getting upset over naming conventions but bottom line for me is, if someone doesn?t want to be called something then I?m wont to listen. Particularly if the person saying ?oi! Stoppit? has history on their side viz: rights, persecution against their race/gender

Do I think there is a problem with the phrase Actress versus Actor? Nope I don?t and I?m happy to argue why

But if women complain about it, in a world where parity has yet to happen on pay in the west and basic human rights elsewhere, what does it cost me to adapt?

Women only got the right to vote in Switzerland in the 1970?s ? if I were a woman I might be a little bit more aware of the forces ranged against them

[RosieH]

More kisses for Sean.

[siousxiesue]

hear hear!

[TillieTrotter]

Adds her kisses to Rosie's.

[Huguenot]

Well I've yet to hear of anyone getting a kicking for being a lady doctor.

Anyway, I'm not questioning the sentiment, I'm questioning the practicality.

The interesting point is that the success of the strategy has been most pronounced not when the use has been curtailed, but when it has been reclaimed - viz gay or n*

Instead of trying to ban comedienne, I'd turn my attention to producing a string of world beating female comics who are proud to be comediennes. Rather than being 'diminishing' it would be a badge of honor.

[Simonet]

Fascinating debate.

So is Jo Brand a Comedian or Comedienne or the token Woman on most panel shows who has been selected purely to balance the Comic gender profile of any programme that she has appearred on?

That's balanced from the usual 4/0 to 3 to1 or 5/0 to 4 to1.

Question are there any Males on this Forum who can, honestly, tell me that they find Jo Brand funny as I have yet to meet one, ever. ?

On the gender thingy think how lucky Women are as they can be a Chairman or ChairWoman or Chairperson or Chair.

I've seen all of these titles bestowed on Women at some point or other.

Life ain't fair, sometimes.:(

[SeanMacGabhann]

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I KNEW you would take it there, as if getting a kicking is the only hardship to be endured before you can say "erm, excuse me but would you mind awfully if..." .

But would I be surprised if any female doctors were able to recount tales of abuse (verbal and physical) from male patients? Not really.. and nor would you

The n word might be "reclaimed" as you say but it's a fairly self-contained victory. You and I know that if we say it with venom it has the power to offend and we will get, rightly, corrected

[SeanMacGabhann]

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I can say that I USED to find her funny, many years ago before the paucity of material became apparent. But yeah I remember going to see her in Exeter in the early 90s and laughing like a drain. But these days....

As to what would I call her? I go to a lot of stand-up comedy and everyone on the stage is a comedian or a comic to me. If some comics prefer to be called comedienne then that's fine by me. There are a lot of people however who will not accept women comics and they do tend to be the ones who sneer and patronise with "comedienne"

[david_carnell]

I can understand the point Rosie is making when the two uses of comedienne so far are Miranda Hart and Job Brand. Sheesh. I'd be offended too.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Let's have Josie Long and Sarah Millican instead (although the latter is making a bid for Mike McIntyre ubiquity)

There are plenty more... Jo Caulfield, Nina Conti, Laura Solon, Mary Bourke..

[TillieTrotter]

Loving Sarah Millican at the moment.

[Simonet]

Huguenot Wrote:

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> I wasn't aware that there had been a change from

> coloured to black, and I'm certainly not aware of

> any change in attitude that it created.

>

> I don't think comedienne is diminishing - I think

> it's a female comic.

On point "a" if I take your point, literally, I'm incredulous. Its impossible not to have realised that in Alf Garnett's day it was "coloured" and now, it has been to a successful degree, reclaimed.

I agree with Sean that if either word is said by someone in a certain tone or manner it can be equally unpleasant.

On point "b" I agree entirely I don't regard it as patronising or deneaning any more than "Actress" is to denote gender.

[Simonet]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Let's have Josie Long and Sarah Millican instead

> (although the latter is making a bid for Mike

> McIntyre ubiquity)

>

> There are plenty more... Jo Caulfield, Nina Conti,

> Laura Solon, Mary Bourke..

This may be for the comedic cognescenti but I have only heard of Jo Caulfield and Josie Long rings the faintest of bells, in truth.

[Huguenot]

I think 'colored' was seized upon as a less aggressive alternative to 'black'. It was an attempt at the language manipulation that some are describing in these pages.

If 'colored' took on more sinister connotations it was because they changed the word, but not the prejudice.

In that sense it's another argument that supports my case - in much the same way that the elimination of 'p*ki' simply transferred all the venom to 'muslim' and 'al-qaeda'.

[SeanMacGabhann]

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I can see this on your tombstone, the very existence of which will no doubt prove just how healthy and alive you are