Syringe Exchange/Methadone Services: Crystal Palace Rd

[macroban]

Well, we'll see if this inconvenient 20th century way of dispensing, produces an increase of service provision to 100 hours per week.

[Clare A]

There is much discussion in this thread and I will add in my thoughts. I live a few roads away from the medical centre. I went to the meeting with an open mind. A few observations from me:

House prices: A man suggested a class action for the devaluation of houses prices. That is preposterous. Only some residents supported this, but I cannot believe somebody actually suggested this. I do not see on what basis they could bring an action and any action would have to fail.

DMC: I was looking forward to hearing the other side of the argument from DMC after I was able to obtain little information out of PCT. I was shocked however at how DMC came across as cold and calculating business people.

No one from the DMC was particularly impressive. The female doctor Dr Bhatia, introduced as a partner at DMC, I see her from time to time and she is a good doctor. She talked about the benefits of the pharmacy (and told me some of what I was hoping to hear), but ultimately it came across as a hard sell by a very determined salesperson. She talked about people needing services in the evening, but failed to commit to the actual GP Surgery opening late evening sessions! She did not attempt to address the concerns of the community. She was eager to discuss the benefits, but did not put herself forward to answer the more difficult and uncomfortable questions. A fair few people commented after the meeting that they found her patronising and such like. Personally I felt very uncomfortable seeing a doctor, and a good one at that, turn into a hard business person.

Another doctor said the money the medical centre will get will be held separately and I assume put into the practice. The most telling point of Dr Bhatia?s piece was when she was asked what about teaming with the existing pharmacies to provide the longer opening hours. She twice replied the same words - ?but WE?VE applied to do it, they can make their own application?. DMC sat huddled with Mediquick. Mediquick refused to answer various questions, including how much money they would make. A pharmacy committee member answered for them - he said they would get ?100,000 per pharmacy and they have numerous pharmacy applications submitted, of which there are three in Southwark and a number of applications in other boroughs such as Lambeth, Lewisham, Greenwich and others.

DMC may have felt that they were not given enough of a chance to speak, but apart from the aggressive man (see below), I think they were given a number of opportunities to speak and quite frankly I think they had put themselves in a very difficult position to get out of. They got heckled at times however usually this was when they launched into their hard sell, refused to answer questions directly or when they refused to answer at all.

The aggressive man: I enquired after the meeting and found out that he was not a BARA person. He was loud and aggressive. Additionally he was angry with DMC because they hadn?t answered his letter (DMC said they didn?t ?have the resources to answer such letters? ?), but his behaviour was not right.

The one interesting point he said however was from a statement from a local methadone user. The local methadone user had said it is not usually the drug user going to the needle exchange or to get methadone who is the problem. It?s the drug pushers who pester these users who are trying to get back on track. And the presence of drug pushers can attract more drug users to the area and those users may not be ones who are on methadone.

I have discovered that some local methadone users have signed the petition, but I presume other users have mixed feelings on this subject as do many other people.

The Community Centre: Various concerns were commented, including an interesting point about the community centre?s ?Post Youth Club?. This was said to be set up with local police to get children off the street and away from the dangers on the street. The chair of the meeting kept on asking about the effect on the wider community including the community centre. DMC and Mediquick refused to comment. The meeting was hearing a lot of that and were getting more agitated by DMC. Some of the phrases DMC and Mediquick used were ?We?re not answering, we only deal in facts?, ?We?re not answering, its not relevant?, ?We?re not at liberty to disclose that information?, ?That?s personal information which we?re not going to discuss?. The last two replies were responses to questions about how much money they would make.

BARA: The chair seemed to have had enough of DMC by the end of the meeting. Bara provided a list of questions they had put to the PCT together with the PCT?s answers. Well done BARA, some facts. They were about the application process, what happens, why applications will be approved or rejected and other questions. One answer concerned me ? the PCT said it would not do a risk assessment. Bara DID however get a formal commitment from the PCT saying that it would consult the public about what will be at the proposed pharmacy, so that was a result.

PCT: Jane Fryer was informative, although she should have given some answers before the meeting like she had been requested to do. Jane said a new late night pharmacy application can be approved even if there is no need for it (a waste of NHS money?) She also said that in this case the applicable rules meant it was extremely likely that PCT would be able to approve the application.

The DMC obviously want the pharmacy even if it means there will be a needle exchange and that the needle exchange goes ahead without any risk assessment or precautions and preventative actions taken ? DMC just did not respond to any of these concerns. But PCT said it was extremely likely they would not approve the application under the rules. Even if there was such a pharmacy (and it could have some benefits), I?m not sure DMC should run it - because they certainly do not seem to have the community or its wellbeing as their focus.

[Clare A]

There are many points on this thread I would like to have an opportunity to comment on. One thing I cannot abide is politicians attempting to score points rather than simply getting on in dealing with the circumstances and assuming a straight down the line approach.

I live a few roads away and decided to learn for my own part what was happening. I saw petitions in the chemists and heard what BARA was doing. I contacted PCT and the PCT manager in charge of the application said that among the pharmacy?s purposes there would be included a needle exchange however the manager would not supply me with full information. Why not? PCT is a public organisation operating on the finance from the public.

Interesting to me, after the meeting I heard PCT discussing the PCT manager who had handled the application and had said that among the pharmacy?s purposes there would be included a needle exchange but would not elaborate on this. PCT said that the manager did not know enough really to be dealing with public questions on the subject. Therefore initially PCT was telling people like myself that the pharmacy?s purposes would include a needle exchange, but was this an error or had PCT changed its mind by the date of the meeting. It is not clear to me.

Why was Tessa not in attendance at the meeting? Undoubtedly it would have been of use in answering some of these questions. Tessa sent apologies though surely a representative or employee from Tessa?s office could have been present. Had Tessa come along she would have known that the Liberal councillor Jonathan Mitchell asked why BARA and residents had asked factual questions to Tessa?s office and to PCT more than 2 WEEKS before this meeting, but Jonathan pointed out neither Tessa nor PCT answered until a short time before the meeting.

Why not? Clearly this is not a new issue. This issue has already come up a few times in Southwark. At the meeting, some residents asked the DMC why it had not made a response to their letters written on this subject. ?There were 20 letters? the residents said. Dr Bhatia dismissed this by saying they were all the same photocopied letter each signed by a different resident. Then Dr Gupta said ?We?re only a small doctors surgery. We don?t have the resources to answer such letters?.

The people who know or should know what?s going on (PCT, DMC surgery, Mediquick and local MP Tessa) do not ensure that the proposals and information are made widely available.

Then these parties do not respond to direct factual questions for a matter of weeks.

Could it be that as suggested above it could all be about damage limitation, trying to think up a convenient explanation? After all PCT must be working closely to Labour because PCT are implementing the government?s policies. Could Tessa really not get an answer any quicker than 2 weeks? Could Jane Fryer really not remember PCT?s rules on late night pharmacies? Do the DMC really think people will believe that they haven?t got the resources to respond to the ONE same letter asking them for information on the situation.

I wish politicians of all parties would stop playing political games with the NHS. The NHS should be run by non-politicians to give in the best way the finances can provide, the services the public needs whether it is a needle exchange, late night pharmacy or the Maudsley Emergency Clinic, without all the political interference and fact spinning. NHS services too often are decided by people not in touch with what happens in the real life of hospitals, the situations of drug users and the lives of the people in need of the various health facilities and care.

I will put forward another point. What if the new DMC pharmacy drives out of business some of the current pharmacies. There may be fewer pharmacies in total and the elderly may have to go further to get to a pharmacy. Nobody has discussed this yet. I would speculate that Tessa, PCT, Mediquick and DMC will respond to this only when they have considered what will be the least damaging response to make, rather than really considering the needs of all.

Whatever the answers are, Jane Fryer from PCT said at the meeting a needle exchange will not go ahead (at least for now). Also she said at the meeting the PCT rules currently prevent the late night pharmacy opening. So why did DMC and Mediquick put in an application? They must have checked the rules beforehand. Had they had some kind of initial nod from PCT that PCT would allow the application through, hoping to keep it all quiet until they got their application granted? It seems all a bit fishy.

Therefore at the meeting it was said it was almost certain there would be no pharmacy for now and no needle exchange for now, although that is different to what PCT indicated when I contacted PCT a few weeks ago. If however a needle exchange is later wanted, BARA secured consultation for the public on this point, whereas before the public may not have received full consultation on this issue. I think extended hours may be useful (and local pharmacies have also offered extended hours), but as yet I am unconvinced that DMC are operating in the best interests of the community.

[Clare A]

Mark Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> There's a newspaper clipping in the chemists on

> Northcross Road, next to the petition against the

> proposal, the first paragraph says something like

> "Local residents are angered that the opening of a

> new drugs clinic will mean that schoolchildren

> will be attacked by crazed junkies".

Some people may think that (and there is quite likely some press sensationalism in the newspaper reporting), but I do think that all people opposed to the pharmacy see it like that from what I have gathered speaking to people on my road and going to the meeting.

> I'm sorry but asking for police protection from

> extremists at a BARA meeting, to me shows that

> there is perhaps a lack of understanding about the

> "enemy" and therefore how to deal with them.

I think there has always been the occurrence of the local bobby coming to some BARA meetings where community concerns are debated. Additionally the council gives requirements and strong advice to BARA relating to usage of the community centre for meetings attended by the public and to not follow those requirements will have legal implications for BARA.

The comment from BARA remarks about ?everyone? being restrained in their behaviour. It could be an emotional debate and there can be ?extremists? on either sides. If someone had thrown the word 'Nazi' at the meeting (to describe those people against the needle exchange), as has been done a couple of times on this very thread above, there could have been real trouble!! It is someone else who has wrongly accused BARA of wanting to protect themselves from 'junkies'.

[Clare A]

A general comment? ? a number of posts above are made by people who appear to not know the full circumstances and information. I think BARA has done a wonderful job in finding out factual information (which was available at their meeting) some information supporting its views other information not supporting.

The meeting was advertised and everyone was provided an opportunity to attend and learn the full situation. Some people (who have been quite negative and or extreme and sometimes very rude and very unpleasant under their forum pseudonyms) said they did not attend the meeting deliberately. Groups, including BARA and others, have given up their free time to find out the facts behind this and give everyone, not just themselves, the opportunity to contribute. All groups on either side of the debate have made some sensible points.

[Maurice]

Well said Clare A. Those who throw grenades generally don't bother to participate. They've all the facts they need to brandish those keen for more information as closed-minded bigots.

I still find it funny that the left wing extremists on this board who believe 'stand up for drug users at all costs' find themselves supporting big business.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

maurice - where did you hone your ability to always fail to comprehend what people are saying when it isn't what you say? You are a total master at it and the best I've ever come across.

[snorky]

You know where you stand with big business, whether you agree with them or not.

[Ko]

Clare A Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> I think there has always been the occurrence of

> the local bobby coming to some BARA meetings where

> community concerns are debated. Additionally the

> council gives requirements and strong advice to

> BARA relating to usage of the community centre for

> meetings attended by the public and to not follow

> those requirements will have legal implications

> for BARA.

>

Clare is right on this.

[Maurice]

Chav standing up for big pharma. Who would've thought it? Try applying for a job with Glaxo?

[macroban]

The concern remains that the outcome seems to have been based on a deception.

[Keef]

Maurice, stop being such a nasty tw@t.

[AllforNun]

Dear Clare A

Wonderful prose, but basically why should ED be able to stop a needle exchange? What possible reasons can you give above and beyond those of any other community? Basically none.

They are needed end of story, it does not matter what lengths people go to dress it up its' wrong. Everyone needs to shoulder some responsibility...its called society.

"friendly association with others," from socius meaning "companion, associate, comrade or business partner." The Latin word was derived from the Greek socus locus, meaning locally social, and implied a social contract between members of the community. Implicit in the meaning of society is that its members share some mutual concern or interest, a common objective or common characteristics"

Unless of course your society is Separate from mine ?

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

Keef - It's not his fault, I think he was born that way or became that way after a frustrating and unsatisfying life of mediocrity. People don't get that bitter and hateful by having a happy, fullfilling life.

[Ted Max]

They [needle exchange] are needed end of story

Except that the PCT's Dr jane Fryer, medical director of the Primary Care Trust (I know, she's probably a real ignoramus, huh?) is on record as saying there is no need for a service.

[AllforNun]

Yes always humbled but university titles ?

Well obviously Dr Jane must have done a head count with her special, Dr type pointer stick, of current users and a projected count of future users? Very scientific. And anyway of course ED does not have any Drug related issues.

[Maurice]

How confusing. One debater offers scientific proof, the other offers nothing but general, sweeping insults of academia in general. Did I miss something?

[Ted Max]

And anyway of course ED does not have any Drug related issues.

Put your straw man back in the attic. I'm pointing out the opinion of the medical director of the PCT, that in this instance there is no need for this service. Nothing to do with ED not having any drug related problems.

I don't know what Fryer based her opinion on - and nor do you. Given her likely access to the facts and the importance of maintaining appropriate service provision, I hope it was on a reasoned assessment of provision against actual need.

[snorky]

Dont be fooled by qualifications - ive got loads and Im as ignorant as they come

But

whether we want to acceopt this or not, there is a "community" of IV drug users in ED- probabaly a great deal larger than you think. The proximity to Kings & its facilities/ Maudsley probably helps boost the numbers.

NX are not really about exchanging sharps - they are about getting people into the system for treatment , establishing routines and making contact - this is treatment rather than a sop to the skaggies - its more than just a NX - its about health and stability.

I dont support the skaggies without question By the way - but accept that they need treatment to stop their problem spiraling and directly affecting me & my neighbours.

Speak to the local filth and you7 will find that mini explosions of petty crimes in the local area - clios having their doors wrenched open and their stereos nicked, garden sheds broken into etc - are often traceable back to a local user who has lost the plot and needs assistance to get back to some kind of normailty - thats part of what NX are for - thats what meth dispensers are for.

Fine - BARA have done a sterling job - they have shut the door on actually allowing an argueably expansionist and profit focused business from providing a service which can benefit the area in the long term.

Unfort, the skaggies wont go away as easily as that.They are amongst us, even if you cant see them form behind your national trust paint glossed front door with period fittings.

[snorky]

PS, I was going to post examples of how the drug users in the area affect us - many of which have been discussed on this forum very very recently, but to keep it all above board, have decided not to list them - some have not yet been charged or gone to court - just cos you dont see them, doesnt mean you dont see the effect of their actions - you may not even realsie it

[ed_pete]

snorkygetshishandbagoutaggedon

[Ted Max]

Snorky, I wish I had a nice front door. Can you sort me one out?

To repeat, there's no need to convince (me at least) that there are users in ED. But was there need for such a service as you describe here? The PCT said no. Yes there are users in the area, but if the PCT says there is no need, then presumably they think there are already enough points of contact, as you put it, to draw users into the system.

Fine - BARA have done a sterling job - they have shut the door on actually allowing an argueably expansionist and profit focused business from providing a service which can benefit the area in the long term.

This is whole point. You can't just post something like that as fact when the only medical opinion we have has said there was no need for the service.

[Ted Max]

I'm going to stop posting on this thread now. There doesn't seem much more to say.

I wasn't against the DMC proposals, I didn't like the tone of some of the antis and the campaigns. I hope in future, if services are needed then they can be provided as and when required.

[macroban]

> There doesn't seem much more to say.

Except who wrote the text of the petition.

[snorky]

Peter Sutcliffe claimed God gave him insructions via his bedside lamp

maybe a similar deity / household appliance / human scenario was behind the petition wording.