Syringe Exchange/Methadone Services: Crystal Palace Rd

[Vik]

I saw one last week in Greetings card shop on LL.

[Ko]

Bara have put petitions in about 5 places.

However, the majority of petitions (e.g. in the CPT, Greetings, Healthmatters etc) are being circulated by other parties who are concerned about the proposals.

[AllforNun]

http://www.southwarknews.co.uk/00,news,7065,6102,00.htm

Reading the above nearly all the people interviewed seem positive and quite informed. Are there any odds out there for the one in Peckham going ahead and the one in the DMC or even anywhere in East Dulwich not ?

[snorky]

Good work people - lets force out those on the margins and make ED a de facto gated community.

What next ? mandatory CRB checks for all remaining residents with ans SE22 poscode - just in case ? Drug users homes forced to display a red "D" on the front door ? Alchoholics a red "A" ? ( apologies to Nat Hawthorne )

This petition is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and singing LALALALALALALALALALALA as loudly as possible so you cant hear what someone is saying to you.

I applaud you all.

[Ko]

AllforNun Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> > Is Gumboots just a convenient excuse ?

I didn't think I had anything left to say on this topic, but AFN you make a good point.

There are two separate Gumboots organisations. Gumboots Community Nursery and Gumboots After School Club. The latter is run out of the ED Community Centre.

There are various groups not happy with the pharmacy/needle exchange proposals, one of which is Bara. People in Bara have been heavily involved in the Community Centre for many, many years. So I think Bara's concern for the Community Centre and at least the Gumboots After School Club is completely understandable, and not 'just a convenient excuse'. It was a good point to query though.

[PeckhamFeathers]

Is the entrance to the community centre not in Darrell Road which is in another road altogether ?

eastdulwichcommunitycentre.org.uk

[Horsebox]

I made a visit to the pharmacy opposite the library earlier today and was asked/told to sign a petition against this development.

The petition was placed next to a copy of the SLP predicting something like Armageddon if this gets the go-ahead.

It will, apparently, cause crime in the area to go up and also pose a massive danger to the nursery, it's occupants and all of the residents in the area.

I politely refused to sign.

[snorky]

Horsebox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I made a visit to the pharmacy opposite the

> library earlier today and was asked/told to sign a

> petition against this development.

>

> The petition was placed next to a copy of the SLP

> predicting something like Armageddon if this gets

> the go-ahead.

>

> It will, apparently, cause crime in the area to go

> up and also pose a massive danger to the nursery,

> it's occupants and all of the residents in the

> area.

>

>

I brickin it now. Oh dear, I cant beleive there could be DRUG users in the area.

What will it do to my PROPERTY value ?

etc etc etc

[snorky]

"skaggadeddon"

"aidsageddon"

"crackageddon"

"smakageddon"

can you think of any more emotive wotrds we can invent to hype this more ?

[Mark]

Foxtonsageddon

[Ko]

I would rather see a sensible risk assessment done than people thinking both extremes of the argument.

Community Centre is in Darrell Rd, but DMC actually has entrances both on Darrell Rd and CP Rd. The plans to expand the DMC may well include a bigger entrance in Darrell Rd.

Both the DMC and the Community Centre run from Crystal Palace Rd all the way to Darrell Rd. All the grounds of the Community Centre, including the playground, adjoin the DMC site.

[tiddles]

can anyone shed any light/experiences about needle exchanges. I can understand why locals might be cheesed off with a late night pharmacy, just from the increased comings and goings when you are trying to sleep. Feelings are running high because of fears and assumptions (some justified, others not) on what might happen. Real experences please.

Personally, I don't see why anyone should have to accommodate others self imposed needs if they have a negative impact on residents' quality of life (nimby? moi? yes and sorry NO apologies) however, if in actual fact there are no real negatives - you don't get gangs of people hanging around, actually there arn't any disgarded needles or other unsavoury stuff, well let those proposing this make that clear and offer some guarantees to those who might be affected. Lastly, some of my best friends were drug users, and a more boring, selfish bunch of t**ts you could not wish to meet.

[tiddles]

sorry that last bit was facetious - but my main point is: I think I would be cheesed off if a 7/11 was opening opposite me with comings and goings etc, and I suppose the concern is that people who might be a bit "strung out" perhaps would not be considerate of others.

ok, thats if, no more wisecracks..

[Blue]

I find it hard to understand the need for a needle exchange in SE22 - there is already a perfectly good drug treatment centre called Marina House, near Kings College Hospital that prescribes and dishes out methadone etc. to their clients. You may have seen people waiting outside early in the morning.Presumably people could get a bus there from SE22 without too much difficulty - and presumably they could hire a couple of people to run the needle exchange (there may already be one there for all I know).

Why would it need to be 24 hours? Say someone is injecting 4 times a day - that is 28, call it thirty syringes a week - say 120 a month. Why couldn't they be given 120 syringes / needles and a sharps bin once a month - how many people are likely to use the service in SE22? Presumably there has been a study of prevalence? If there were more than 200 I would be very surprised.

I don't understand what the thinking is behind localising and duplicating all resources.

http://www.southwarkmind.org.uk/details.asp?Resource=Marina%20House%20Addictions%20Resource%20Centre

I worked at a needle exchange and facility where people could come and inject their drugs (usually heroin and pills) and also smoke their crack etc. in Maastricht, Holland. It wasn't based in a residential area, but was actually located next to (well, near to)the central police headquarters. The street sweepers in Holland have sharps containers attached to their trolleys (for syringes and needles) whilst 'street corner workers' (out reach workers) from the project I worked with regularly went out collecting used syringes and needles etc.

It is inevitable that if there is a needle exchange some people will use drugs intravenously outside / on the street and casually discard their equipment. Many heroin and IV users are on society's margins and don't tend to have community safety issues at the forefront of their agenda. Users utilising a needle exchange will probably be those without many resources (your middle class junkie will manage quite well, thank you very much, without an exchange)and are more likely to be actively involved in criminal activity or on the periphery.Of course crime will go up locally. Of course there will be problems.I'm all for providing proper services - but in Crystal Palace Road? Come on.

[snorky]

I think there is one important differnce here - the people who will be using a needle exchange drop in will be unlikely to be the same ones who discard their works around the place - if these users have enough nous to get up , get on a bus and go for some clean jags, then its unlikely they will then revert to cartoon junkie stereotype and proceed to bang up on the wall outside the exchange and spray their blood on passers by.

We/ You will know the users who live in the area ( at eklast you should iof you keep your eyes open ) and apart from the odd...ehm..."incident" as we have discussed at length on ths board, they are fairly low key.

Needle exchange users are usually settled enough to benefit from a setup like this

There is low level drug dealing / supply in ED, but a needle exchange will nor turn LL into the new Brixton & mean we have to walk the gauntlet of dealers on our way to Foxtons to buy another house .

The users who discard their works are usually transient, NFA and possibly involved in minor crime to supplment their non existant income - these are not the target group for a needle exchange setup like this - this is where outreach workers will work with them in situ.

I think we do have to question the motives of the DMC though - they do have a rapacious approach to market cornering and making hard cash- that I cannot argue with

there is a need in the area.

but if not crystal palace road, then where ?

like telephone masts, no one wants one within spitting distance of their homes, or want to pass by one on their way to buy their Daily Mail each morning

um.

[AnotherPaul]

At the BARA meeting last night, as short as I can make it.

In order for the Dulwich Medical Centre (DMC) to be able to apply to open a pharmacy they have to indicate their willingness to provide needle exchange, methadone treatment, smoking cesation facilities - whether the DMC want to actually provide those facilities or not. The pharmacy will be owned and run by a business called Mediquick which, comments floor suggested, are part owned by some of the doctors at the DMC.

Our Southwark Primary care trust (PCT) will review the application. They were represented here by Jane Fryer. It's their opinion that there is no need for another pharmacy in the area and that heroin users in the neighbourhood already well provided for. They couldn't tell the BARA meeting what their decision will be but hinted strongly that they will reject the application. Jane stressed that even were they to approve the opening of the pharmacy that would not mean the start of a needle exchange or methadone treatment provision - for now. Jane could not promise this forever queue howls of grumpy derision from the floor.

Up Next was the Practice manager of the DMC Raj Gupta, who gave a deeply unconvincing performance. The gist of his speech was that opening a pharmacy is about enhancing patient choice. He may have other points to make but in the face of loud and persistent interventions from the floor his speech fell apart and stumbled to a halt.

The speech which followed was the strangest and most intense rant I've ever witnessed, it's author being Jonathan, local Liberal councillor. He spoke powerfully against the new pharmacy, focusing on the wrongness of a system which obliges the PCT to consider DMC's application although it knows it to be wrong. Jonathan thinks this a new Labour thing and example big government enforcing decisions upon people. Quite fair points I though but? he was turning bright red, he was transforming into a besuited angry radish before my very eyes. His back was up, this was all wrong, how could this be?

Then he ventured into the world of analogy. The new pharmacy would be like a "mushroom cloud" located between the community center and nursery. I smirked as did my companion but it seemed that no one else in the room was up for a laugh. Jonathon stopped and returned to his usual unradished state.

Next came the head of the hecklers, David, chair of Crystal Palace Road estate assoc. Considering the volume and regularity at which he interrupted others he was guaranteed a good reception and got it. He was also bordering on the eliquant. Put his point, 'we don't want the pharmacy', referred to the petition against having 1500 names and read out some of the petitioners fears. A pretty good performance aside from the off the cuff doom saying. Towards the end of his speech he even managed to suggest that drug addicts would be coming into regular contact with little special needs kiddies (his tone not mine) "and they really can't look after themselves can they, there's no argument".

A short statement was read out from the calm woman representing local pharmacies (apols for loss of name). They're working to provide the late night opening hours which DMC claim are the reason for the new pharmacy and feel that they could be put out of business by this new pharmacy.

Matthew from the Southwark patients forum stated he works with drug users and that the new pharmacy would be bad for them. Users take time to trust pharmacies so were existing ones to be put out of business users in the neighbourhood may be likely to revert to illegal behaviour.

Then questions were opened up to the floor. A female doctor from the DMC made a decent attempt at explaining the detail of the patient choice argument so poorly handled by Raj earlier but the effort was ultimately in vain. When respending to questions about how the DMC has handled public engagement on this issue she cited that patients had be questioned. Jonathan the councillor went all red again and led the charge, "but what about the wider community" he and the chair implored together (jinx). Said doctor had air pressed from her but still managed to smile as she sat. A defense had been made.

The man who appeared to be the lead partner of the DMC responded to questions about how they had handled this issue by stating they were here to listen and only dealing in "facts". Again the floor and chair (who was getting quite stuck in for a chair) railed against this, why had the DMC not asked the community what it wanted? Aside from saying they would go away and think about it there was no answer offered. The facts argument neatly showed why the DMC has handled the matter so poorly, there being no such things as 'rational man'.

From the back of the room a city worker (as he described himself) made the point that the pharmacy going ahead would devalue house prices. Well, this is East Dulwich after all and house prices had to figure somehow. He'd just been on the phone to a city lawyer (oooh!) and suggested that locals in the community should get their houses valued and that he would start a class action against the DMC were they to proceed. Many arms were raised in support of this.

The evening came to an end with a measured comment from the floor. A woman with seemingly no axe to grind suggested that the DMC had made a bit of a mess of this and that they seemed to be motivated more by money than caring for the community. A popular and well put sentiment

Tea and biscuits were offered and it was over.

As I left I couldn't hep feeling that the first and final speakers had nailed it. There almost certainly isn't going to be a pharmacy at the DMC but had the DMC handled the issue with some sensitivity a lot of stress and upset could have been avoided.

ap

(edited for typos n that)

[Keef]

Well summed up AP thanks.

Mr Chair, and Mr City Lawer house prices, are the sort of people that would make me support an application to have my own arm cut off (assuming of course they were against it), just to spite the silly tw@ts!

Other than that, sounds like a decent meeting.

[snorky]

"from the back of the room one man made the point that the pharmancy going ahead would devalue house prices. Well, this is East Dulwich after all and house prices had to figure. He'd just been on the phone to a city lawyer (oooh!) and suggested that locals in the community should get their houses valued and that he would start a class action against the DMC were they to proceed. Many arms were raised in support of this. "

Whoever you are brave sir, You are indeed a twat of the highest order.

[snorky]

Oh yes, thanks for the report!

"HOUSEPRICECRASHAGEDDON"

[AnotherPaul]

or 'horseinducedhousepriceageddon'

[snorky]

"waitingformymaninse22aggeddon"

[Keef]

onthephonetolawyegeddon?

[AnotherPaul]

everythinghaschangedandidontlikeitageddon

[snorky]

threatsoflitigationaggedon

actually, I have been at the receiving end of people like this and their mantra like threats of litigation for perceived slight over property problems

they moved soon after.

[AnotherPaul]

to another planet one would hope.

we're so far off topic as to be laughable.

i know i'll get back on topic.

i thought it a little strange that there's been such intense discussion here on the forum and yet little evidence of people from the forum bothering to show up at a real meeting - with biscuits.

theinternetemasulatedmydemocracyageddon

or

ilikerantingonlinebutcantstandpeopleinthefleshageddon

or something else?