Syringe Exchange/Methadone Services: Crystal Palace Rd

[Ko]

CWALD and Ganapati, you both say some great things. (tu)

[BARA]

As another member of BARA Committe I think there is some confusion in some people's minds as to what we are trying to achieve.

Out of hours Pharmacy - I think we all agree that such a facility would be advantageous to the community - if DMC felt this way - why did they not band up with their GP colleagues and Pharmacists to propose a rota of late openings for the East Dulwich Area? My sceptical answer would be where is the money in this for them!

So in order to get some money -the only way they can get a pharmacy on DMC grounds ( or are they proposing to build a shop on site?) - but PCT rules and regs say there is no need for another pharmacy only if you are willing to offer a minimum of 100 hours a week needle exchange/supervisedmethadone consumption - what difference does it make that we have a nursery next door and a community centre/after school club/youth club next door.

As we all know, people are fearful of the unknown - surely the way to have good relationships with your neighbours (yes BARA meets at the Community Centre) is to be honest with them about your future plans.

We are not opposed completely to a needle exchange (although some members may agree to differ)- it is now an unfortunate fact of life that many people are dependent on drugs to get them through life's daily grind. We feel the venue proposed and the hours 7 am - 11 pm 7 days a week are not appropriate. From experiences in the Barry Road/Etherow Street/Friern Road area with drug users - it is not the users themselves that are the problem,but once it is known by the various drug dealers that a certain group 'meets' outside or nearby certain premises, the area is targeted by those selling their wares. One particular drug user used to get his methodone from the local pharmacist and was offered money by dealers and other addicts to 'share' his NHS methodone with them, it got to a point that my daughters were frightened to go out around 11 ish one morning as 'our drug user' had parked his car in my garden and was dealing from it. My eldest daughter being in her late 20s at the time asked 'M' to move as she wanted to get her car in but was threatened and verbally abused by his 'mates'. To meet 'M' out without the hangers on, he was usually approachable but in the comapny of others an entirely different person.

CP rd is a rat run, people are around mainly during the day but apart from motorists,not so at night. It is a poorly lit area which deters people from walking alone at night.

Lordship Lane is a more appropriate place for a needle exchange - busy at all times of day and night, frequent police cars, plenty of traffic and a needle exchange would merge in with the other shops. 6 Lordship lane would be an ideal site as it was formerly a community mental health facility. Forest Hill Road has a needle exchange in the pharcmacy, we learnt of this yesterday but it is available during shop opening times.

Someone mentioned diabetics and 'legitimate medical' use of needles - yellow needle boxes are supplied via the district nursing service and collected by the clinical waste section of the council.

DMC* also have surgeries in Chadwick Road, Bermondsey, Woolwich and the Old kent Road. A colleague informed me that for each additional clinic/service a medical centre provides, the NHS pays ?25.000 a year

A needle exchange between the hours of 7 am - 11 pm on premises used by pensioners, pregnant women etc, and flanked by a day nursery, with a community centre serving children from 5 years old upwards on a daily basis,a senior citizen health and social group, homework and cultural clubs etc. In total around 550 people use this centre each week, This is an inappropriate venue.

THe PCT cannot go unscathed regarding this matter - they should ber open and transparent in their dealings with local people, This is a highly contraversal subject which will divide people.

BARA Committee members are not NIMBYs- we are all busy people who have a desire to improve the living conditions of local people regardless of tenure, culture and ethnicity. Many of us work in a paid or voluntary capacity with young people with disruptive behaviour, with the mentally ill, homeless, substence misusers and other vulnerable groups.

Within 2 days of hearing about this proposal - we have managed via Tessa Jowell's office to extend the consultation period until November which gives everyone a chance to find out information as to how other communities cope with a needle exchange in their area - and to weigh up the pros and cons.

(*Removed "is part of Mediquick who" which was typed by mistake. We were meaning to refer to Assura Group)

[Ko]

As Bawdy-Nan has already said above, the PCT?s needs assessment shows that there is not a need for another pharmacy in the area. I believe that it also has not been shown that there is a need for more services for substance misuse/drug-users.

So if there is no need for another pharmacy, the PCT?s regulations mean that it will normally not permit one to open.

So normally Mediquick would not be allowed to open a new pharmacy in ED because it is not needed. (?..So do Mediquick want to open a new pharmacy out of the goodness of their hearts?..?)

If Mediquick want to open, they can only do so if they fall under an exemption.

One exemption is if the pharmacy opens for at least 100 hours. So Mediquick wants to open under the 100 hour exemption because it MUST fall under an exemption. (?..So are Mediquick opening for 100 hours out of the goodness of their hearts?..?)

But any pharmacy opening for 100 hours in Southwark MUST, as a condition of being a 100 hour pharmacy, also provide certain services including needle exchange and be willing to have methadone consumption. (?..So are Mediquick offering the needle exchange and possible methadone consumption out of the goodness of their hearts?..?)

So 100 hour pharmacies have to provide needle exchange and possible methadone consumption, but they do NOT have to have provision for rehabilitation services for drug-users. (?..So will Mediquick be providing needle exchange/possible methadone out of the goodness of their hearts, but the goodness of their hearts means that they won?t also provide rehabilitation services?..?)

(By the way what, if any, is Dulwich Medical Centre?s connection?)

Why doesn?t the PCT plough the money into extending hours at the existing pharmacies, and then use the leftover money on rehabilitation services (rather than needle/methadone services they haven't shown there is a need for)?

Overall, I would like to see a lot more transparency in what the PCT does. And also in what some other organisations do as well. Please let?s not allow the PCT and the likes of Mediquick divide this community!!! We need to find the best solution all round, and that?s going to be a really hard one. But at least there?s more time to figure it out now. It needs to be the best solution for everyone?s needs, and not the best solution for the PCT?s agenda.

[i've edited it to take out the last sentence which may have confused people and where that sentence was quoted to start a new thread]

[Ko]

BARA Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> > Lordship Lane is a more appropriate place for a

> needle exchange - busy at all times of day and

> night

Hard to know if LL would be better. If something was opened on LL, I would still prefer the hours to be 9-5. And I would also like to see more thought given to it beforehand to assess the needs of all the families/elderly/children using the busy Lordship Lane and to have a proper assessment of what servies are needed including rehabilitation.

[AllforNun]

Yes BARA you are totally right - Lordship lane is completely different to somewhere like Camberwell who have many needle exchanges. Ok Camberwell is busy and has old people, children and families but they are certainly not in the same categories as the ED residents. Lots of these people need to take lifts up too their flats and the kids are used/trained from an early age to recognise the dangers of a dirty needle. Anyway the ED coucillors are bound to listen to us and get this thing moved, after all we are the voters they are all chasing. It should be stuck in Peckham, they may raise a fuss but it is doubtfull the council will pay any attention. And as there are almost no connecting buses between the two areas we would probably never get a fright and bump into any of these addicaty people anyway.

[BARA]

In reply to Ko's message. It is believed that the owners of the DMC are also the Directors of Mediquick. I did a little iternet search last night and found a Mediquick whose company address is Croydon was set up early in 2007, I have requested information on its trading.

The DMC has also in the distance past dealt in the luxury car trade - having posh/very expensive cars shipped over to England for sale. How do we know this ? the car trailer was seen so frequently parked overnight in nearby streets with the drivers sleeping in the cabs that several of our members raised objections of a heavy good vehicle going down narrow street like Landells Road, and challenged the drivers who informed all members that their contact was in the DMC.

At least Tessa has got us an extension for objections - we can at least have time to formulate a measured response.

[macroban]

This is begining to sound like an East Dulwich equivalent of a witch-hunt.

[Keef]

BARA, as an organisation, may I just ask, would you be happy to have this place if you were given certain assurences, or is your mind made up whatever happens?

[spadetownboy]

Ganapati Wrote:

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> Chav, all I'm saying is that insulin and heroin

> should not be compared. I think you're veering

> into conspiracy territory with your comment about

> " our system we are supposed to hand power for

> pretty much all of our functions to

> 'professionals' and allow them to dictate which

> drugs we are allowed to be medicated with or

> addicted to." If someone has mental health issues,

> is it really wise for them to "self-medicate" with

> heroin? (Not saying it's wise to take Seroxat

> (since I'm not a "professional"). And if you're

> going to take the decision to self-medicate in

> your own hands and ignore what the "professionals"

> say, should you really then be going to them for

> help when you're in over your head? Just playing

> devils advocate.

>

> I'm not sure how to take your comment about the

> big drug companies. Are you trying to imply that

> bc no big pharma company makes heroin and there

> are no juicy profits to be made from it that the

> NHS simply doesn't want "us" to have it? Bc,

> actually, heroin is used by the NHS, but under the

> medical name diamorphine, and there is a big

> British pharma company manufacturing it. Can we

> just call a spade a spade and agree that heroin is

> not nice and that residents have a right to know

> what the medical center is up to without being

> accused of hysteria etc? I personally agree with

> your statement that it's the DMC trying to just

> make more revenue and what's annoying about the

> whole thing is that they didn't see the need to

> consult with their neighbours.

nanapatty where was insulin and heroin compared on this thread i,ve looked and i,ve looked and i stil cant find it anywhere

[Ganapati]

Spade--You said in your post that you wondered "if there would be such a big hoo ha if the needle exchange was opened just for them [diabetics], or is it just that you dont like the possible idea of hoards of drug users descending on crystal place road..." This is where the comparison comes from. Of course no one would care about the diabetics as opposed to the heroin users.

[Keef]

I would argue that that is comparing people's opinions, of diabetics and heroin addicts, as opposed to comparing insulin and heroin.

[spadetownboy]

Ganapati Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Spade--You said in your post that you wondered "if

> there would be such a big hoo ha if the needle

> exchange was opened just for them , or is it just

> that you dont like the possible idea of hoards of

> drug users descending on crystal place road..."

> This is where the comparison comes from. Of course

> no one would care about the diabetics as opposed

> to the heroin users.

still cant see the comparison nana, what i was comparing was peoples attitudes towards users of needle exchanges you,ve obviously grasped the wrong end of the needle.

[USAJ]

clinics like that just bring in the bad riff raff to ED

[ednerd]

I'm still slightly perplexed by the how much 'forum-mileage' has come out of the clearly ludicrous idea that drug users and insulin dependant diabetics are comparable at any meaningful level.

My opposition to the scheme outlined, particularly in a residential area during the hours suggested is vehement. The small grain of sympathy I have for their addiction is eclipsed by my desire to walk home late at night without making the acquaintance of a gaggle of smackheads.

Although I begrudgingly concede that such facilities ought to be provided 'somewhere', I'm not sure that I could conjure a LESS appropriate place for one than next door to a nursery in a reasonably 'decent' residential area. There are plenty of other appropriately scummy areas in South East London where surely these individuals may feel more at home.

And before the inevitable barrage of abuse from those patronising do-gooers among you comes flying in my direction, may I suggest that we agree to differ? I?ll use my time signing the petition and ranting to anyone who?ll listen about my opposition, and perhaps you can pop out for an evening stroll, befriend yourselves a drug addict and make provisions for a nice proportion of disposal income (normally spent on organic chicken and Guardian subscriptions) to be directed towards ?those less fortunate?.

[TillieTrotter]

Here Here!

[Ganapati]

Keef--you're exactly right. Diabetics vs. heroin users. Still, apologies to spade, it's a tenuous comparison.

[Louisa]

I live just off of CPR, and I have absolutely no problem with this service at all. I completely hate this mentality of 'it's not our problem, put it somewhere else!'.. Everyone has a right to these facilities, and it isnt aimed solely at people with addiction problems. I think the posted petition is a typical scaremongering attempt to make local people feel unsafe. I would not consider signing it, and I find it offensive that it's even being raised as an issue!

[ednerd]

Louisa, more or less offensive than children in le Chandelier, or much of a muchness?

[Nero]

I think it should go ahead for a trial period, with any objections being noted. If there are lots of pictures of 'gaggles of smackheads' provided, alongside any other problematic issues, then it should be reviewed. Addiction is not a matter of indulgence, fact. Anyone of us might have a gene combination that leads us there, and that goes for any of your children. Nero

[Louisa]

funny ednerd

[Louisa]

Nero I was a nicotine addict for many years, and with an estimated 1/3 of the nation being smokers at some point in their lives, I think it's highly hypocritical for people to turn their back on and condemn drug abusers when they have probably had some sort of addiciton in their life too.

[TillieTrotter]

But lets all hate it if M & S move into Lordship Lane. Please!

[Louisa]

I'd love to see marks and sparks open up on LL, but not in place of Iceland thats all.

[ednerd]

While we're at it, let's stick up for child abusers and wife-beaters, shall we? Surely, they too are damned by faulty genetic programming.

For the record, in fact, I have had no addictions to speak of; not nicotine, not alcohol, not the gee-gees, nor even the ubiquitous grossly-obese-through-excessive-love-of-turkey-twizzlers-addiction.

I think the hypocrites among us may be the ones even attempting to put forward a credible argument that the facility that is the subject of this thread would do anything whatsoever to enhance the lives of vast majority of ED residents.

[Louisa]

ednerd the whiter than white character who has never had any addiciton issues, should perhaps consider the future. Any current or potential offspring who may well be inclined to follow a certain path in later years, are they condemned to the same narrow minded attitude? I hope not. If the new service isnt offered in ED, where else will it go? I guess you dont care as long as it doesnt damage your "decent residential area".

No one is suggesting it will offer us anything positive as a community, but equally there is no credible argument to suggest it will have a negative impact either. People like yourself who allow the tabloid press to dominate their minds are the ones who have the issue, not the greater informed ED community.