Syringe Exchange/Methadone Services: Crystal Palace Rd

[Ganapati]

No, that's not what I said. Spadetownboy is trying to equate heroin addiction with being a diabetic. I was trying to point that they are not the same, not that I would turn it down. This thread is beginning to annoy me anyway. People who voice any worries about the clinic will just be written off the frightened middle class no matter what.

[Keef]

No he didn't!

spadetownboy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> it might be worth pointing out that needle exchange is not

> just limited to drug users, its also pretty handy

> for those who suffer with diabetes and other

> conditions which require regular injections at

> home.

He was asking if people would be so concerned if the clinic was for needle users except for illegal drug users. It's a fair question.

It annoys me that on this forum people will run away from/take the upper hand in a debate by saying "I'm not playing any more because it's coming down to class". I could be wrong, but I think you were the first person to mention class in this thread...

[lozzyloz]

I've had experience with smack heads and they can be incredibly destructive. To themselves and those around them. That's why any support they can get is crucial. Out of neccessity it does mean that there has to be proper safeguards in place. You wouldn't site a pub next to a nursery. Southwark council should be reassuring the BARA community that this is the case in conjunction with Mediquick. I'm sure that's all BARA is seeking not an exclusion zone. It seems that the consultation process is well and truly flawed and another PR disaster because of bad council management.

[macroban]

The original posting was about "drug users" the sands have now shifted to inadequate consultation.

> There is concern that this will attract drug users to the area, affecting safety (particularly at night) and leading to an increase in anti-social incidents. Others areas which have had pharmacies with similar services opened, have seen a rise in drug addicts present, used syringes discarded on to the streets and trouble caused by the people present.

[Keef]

Agree on that (Loz), but not surprised, councils don't like consultation, Southwark are not alone there!

Ganapati, sorry if I was harsh, didn't mean to get personal with you, just don't like campains like this, when they seem uninformed and close minded.

[Ant]

macroban Wrote:

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> The original posting was about "drug users" the

> sands have now shifted to inadequate

> consultation.

>

Not sure I get your point, macroban.

[BARA]

Ant Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> macroban Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > The original posting was about "drug users" the

> > sands have now shifted to inadequate

> > consultation.

> >

>

>

> Not sure I get your point, macroban.

The original post said "There is concern..."

We have attempted to talk to the health authority (the PCT), but the relevant person admitted that they didn't really understand the process, the applications prodecure or the Regulations (they couldn't actually find the Regulations) and they weren't sure what exactly was going to happen now.

We have contacted the Lib Dems and Tessa Jowell's office, but no one so far has heard anything about this and they are also making their own enquiries now.

People want involvement and want to be allowed to have a view. If it is all so straightforward, why have intereted parties not been made aware of the proposal.

Thank you also to everyone who has contacted us via BARA's hotmail address.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

I'm actually against methadone prescribing as it prolongs addiction, is harder to withdraw from and makes drug companies loads of money.

A close friend of mine went to her local doctors a few years ago for help with an embrionic heroin addiction and was told by her GP that her doctors do not treat addicts, she replied, that was incorrect, they just didn't treat addicts for their addiction problems. 5 years later after her addiction nearly killed her (from the resultant depression - not the heroin) I took her away to my Dad's in Wales so I could look after her disabled daughter while she went through withdrawls. Luckily she wasn't on methadone so the really scary part only lasted 3 days, and by the end of the week she could keep down ice cream and toast. She stayed clean for about 6 months, relapsed a few times, but has now been properly clean for about a year and a half. She has lost a lot of her teeth and has severe asthma from smoking heroin for so long but she is no longer depressed and is coping well with her daughter.

If she had been given some help for her addiction in the early stages and the help as a single parent carer that she was entitled to, but incapable of fighting for, I doubt she would have had to go through all those years of darkness and pain.

None of us are indistructable, and I hope that if you are ever in a dark place, you will not be shunned and told "there is no help for your sort here".

And before any of you assume that her daughter's disability was the result of her heroin addiction, the birth of her blind autistic baby, post natal depression and subsequent fu**ing off of her husband all preceded the heroin addiction.

[Ganapati]

No offense taken Keef. But on the other hand I don't think we should totally shut out what BARA are raising. I don't live anywhere near CPR so it doesn't affect me, but if a methadone/needle exchange clinic were opening near me I would want to know what that meant and how they would manage it. Isn't that what BARA are trying to figure out? Anyway, Spadetownboy *is* trying to compare diabetics and heroin addicts. He says, "i wonder if there would be such a big hoo ha if the needle exchange was opened just for them, or is it just that you dont like the possible idea of hoards of drug users descending on crystal place road." Of course no one would give a toss about diabetics! Diabetics don't have an addiction and when have you last read about a diabetic stealing to feed their insulin needs? Will crime rise if a needle exchange program opens up? Who knows, but I think we should at least be realistic about it and not try to bend so far the other way (from thinking it will trash the neighborhood with junkies lurking around every corner) that we smooth over that heroin addiction has been known to drive people to commit crimes.

[JoeChuff]

i don't see what you lot are worried about, this is dulwich, all the junkies will be posh ones like amy winehouse

[bawdy-nan]

I have just had notice from the PCT that they are extending the consultation period to November 8th in order that interested parties can consider the proposals. I think this is great news and it gives us all an opportunity to find out about the proposals, what they actually mean and what risk assessments have been made or need to be made.

Much better to have time for reflection and investigation than panic campaigning and under-informed reaction.

[Rockets]

Is BARA campaigning against the pharmacy as a whole or just the needle exchange? I, for one, think a late night pharmacy at the surgery makes sense. Anyone who has tried to order a repeat prescription at the Co-op and the debacle that can be will surely support any move. The fact that they will offer a needle exchange is irrelevant, as far as I am concerned; addicts will currently frequent the surgery so what's the issue? I live near the Forest Hill Road pharmacy but have never seen a discarded needle or anyone who looks any worse for wear than a skinful of ale.

[buggie]

maybe its a naive view, but surely addicts using a needle exchange must have some degree of self awareness/trying to limit the effects of their addiction. Is it not possible that the gp surgery already has patients who are addicts/have mental health problems which haven't caused a threat yet.

Working locally (and in a v similar job to spadetown boy's former job) I have seen that ED is a very mixed bag of people and so everyone is probably living closer to people who might need these services than they would think.

[BARA]

Back online now... Tessa Jowell's office have contacted BARA...

"Further to our meeting this morning I have been in touch with Southwark Health and Social Care. They have undertaken to address the queries you raised and I should have more information next week. In the meantime they have agreed to extend the consultation procedure and you will be able to make representations etc until 8 November 2007."

[KateW]

I have no problem with the pharmacy dispensing clean works and providing a place for users to return their used works in a responsible manner; what I do have a problem with is the extended hours. I used to work at a needle exchange in South London and our opening hours were 9.30am-5pm and no-one using the service thought this a problem nor did they request us to stay open later (although granted, there weren't many shows before lunchtime).

[AllforNun]

Fallen Between

Have you seen me?

yet as

I wait

and as

it rains

on my parade

I am the only

lonely

marcher

yet

It is

but

November

and coldly

the band plays

out of time

and rhythm

their hooting

cut

short

by the weathers

derision

yet

I wait

and I wait

as laughter

sounds out

amongst the beating

of drums

Anon

(I think thia means We are all happy as long as they stay hidden in the cracks in pavement away from our lives)

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

Ganapti - the reason diabetics don't need to steal for insulin is because the NHS gives them it. If heroin was given to heroin addicts instead of methadone I have no doubt heroin addicts would no longer need to steal (or beg, or work - many hold down jobs) to pay for their medication.

If all GP's offered full-services to their patients, including addiction treatment, then there would be even less base for hysterical assumptions that having one in your area would lead to an influx of junkies and abandoned needles.

[bawdy-nan]

Whatever the best way of treating addiction, its far better to be open about whats planned. Some people do have concerns about having such a clinic open up it makes sense for the surgery and PCT to address those concerns head on, show that they have considered and dealt with any risks and enable people to see the big picture. Trying to rush something through without following the regulatory procedures is likely to engender distrust and suspicion.

Its good news that that the regulations are going to be followed now and it gives everyone time (45 days) to think about the issues and hear all the arguments soberly, so to speak.

Personally, I don't feel too strongly about it. I have a close relative who is / has been an addict. He's not much fun and has been helped by a sympathetic doctor. I can see the need for a facility, but if I were planning one I can think of much better places to put it in the area. There is, or exampe, the seldoc facility at the East Dulwich hospital which is aready open late, has parking and isn't a solely residential street.

The PCT guidelines say a new pharmacy should open where there is an assessed need. There isn't one identified in ED (hence the local pharmacists objections). The only way they can open one is under an agreement to open for at least 100 hours a week and under that exemption they must offer a needle exchange and a willingness to be a place which can administer methadone.

I don't think this an example of careful planning of services, rather that DMC is looking to expand its income streams.

As far as I know there isn't a late night pharmacy in ED (though I might be wrong) and its a service that surely will be welcomed by residents. I wonder why one of the "independents" who oppose new pharmacies opening hasn't thought to offer a late night service themselves.

[Ganapati]

Chav--Heroin is not medicine (at least not in the type of case you are referring to). Besides that, I lived in America where nothing medical is free, and you still don't have diabetics stealing for their insulin. Anyway that is not my point. My point is that Spade made a comparison between the two which I thought was a rather tenuous one and that people were bending so far the other way as to make out that heorin addiction was a simple illness. I'm not sure why people are assuming that BARA is getting hysterical. People get up in arms on this forum over chain stores & estate agents moving in. I'm sure if Starbucks tried to muscle in on LL there would be a petition to stop them from coming (as what happnened when they moved in to Blackheath).

[Ko]

I back the petition. Personally, I don?t agree with all the points that other Bara members make. But that?s the way these things work.

People who remember my posts will know some of my views. Eg. I don?t agree with people who want CPZs. Or that even where I disagree with the point someone makes, I?m all for consultation, open discussion, people getting to have a say and the proper processes being followed.

In my opinion, I suspect some (not all) of the views or thoughts (about not knowing why people want to back the petition) are just as, ?closed-minded?, ?hysterical?, ?sweeping the problem under someone?s else carpet,? ?scaremongering?, ?uninformed?, and ?wanting them away from our lives?. Its not either/or. Some people quickly pass judgement. Let?s pretend that I wanted to pass judgement on some of them or people who are thinking the same thing, I might say as follows.

So you don?t like the petition. But how many of you have actually regularly done something responsible, positive and proactive to help drug addicts, actually giving up your free time, and doing it without being paid for any of time? How many of you have campaigned on their behalf? How many of you have actually worked with them face-to-face in sometimes unpleasant conditions, sometimes feeling unsafe? I know some of you have, but I?m guessing some haven?t.

How many of you have actually got your hands dirty helping drug addicts? Without being paid to do so? Or taking a lower paid job because you want to help them? Rather than being Nimbys and sitting in your ivory towers ? thinking that you don?t sign such petitions and you pay a few taxes making it the government?s problem. Even if the government isn?t doing a good job. (I'm being devil's advocate here.) Yes, you might NOT be opposed to the proposal like some of the people signing the petition, but have you regularly done something responsible and proactive for drug addicts?

Let?s get real. I suspect some people signing the petition can?t answer yes to those questions. But I equally suspect that some of those accusing (or thinking) of others as being close-minded/hysterical/nimbys, also can?t say yes to those questions - because they are too are nimbys busy sitting in their ivory towers and thinking that it is somebody?s else?s problem to deal with (eg government/councils), even if they are not doing a good and responsible job of dealing with it.

Everyone can do more, me included. There are other things one could say, but why bother. Its not either/or. I think we need to look at the needs of all sections of the community, including drug addicts, including neighbours, including residents, including local businesses. I think we need to be responsible. I don?t think the PCT?s approach so far has been responsible. Will it become responsible? ? who knows. Previous things they?ve done have not given me much confidence.

[Jah Lush]

Hmmm. can't say I'm for or against this and I don't want to sound like I'm sitting on a fence, I just think the location could be a little bit better. Many years ago I lost a couple of friends to heroin and it's not nice. Another friend has been in recovery for 25 years. Also, I'm totally against Methadone treatment. It's just swapping one addiction for another.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

This in my view is a bigger issue than the Dulwich Medical Centre trying to increase their revenue and the non-consultation.

Lack of consultation by people weilding power in our names, is a problem in many areas of our lives and needs to be fiercely challenged by all of us, but my wider point is, what makes you feel you have the right to campaign to deny patients of one GP or another access to addiction treatment at their own doctors?

If this had just been a needle exchange and addiction treatment for registered patients, rather than a sperate chemist, would you have been happy with that? I doubt it, because I would guess it is actually about your skewed perceptions and fear of drug addicts that is driving this petition.

[Ko]

CWALD, some things you say I agree with. :) Other things you say I don't agree with. :'( You talk about 'skewed perceptions', but how do you know what is motivating each person to sign a petition? What about if someone has a skewed perception which is so skewed the other way?

Or if someone has lost a relative/friend to addiction, does that make them more qualified to comment or more skewed in their perceptions? My point is that things aren't so either/or, black or white as some comments above suggest. Many people know/have known addicts and have lost ones they love and have different views on treatments, rehabilitation, approaches etc. I for one want to see a more responsible approach to the whole thing.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

Ganapti - many people self-medicate with heroin, weed, alcohol etc because of underlying mental health problems, but our system we are supposed to hand power for pretty much all of our functions to 'professionals' and allow them to dictate which drugs we are allowed to be medicated with or addicted to.

Seroxat and other extremely dangerous and addictive drugs have been handed out like smarties for as long as the NHS has been around to pick up the tab. If the big drug companies can't make it, we can't have it, but if they do, then health, wellbeing and contol over ones treatment go out of the window in favour of profits for these insidious corporations.

[Ganapati]

Chav, all I'm saying is that insulin and heroin should not be compared. I think you're veering into conspiracy territory with your comment about "[in] our system we are supposed to hand power for pretty much all of our functions to 'professionals' and allow them to dictate which drugs we are allowed to be medicated with or addicted to." If someone has mental health issues, is it really wise for them to "self-medicate" with heroin? (Not saying it's wise to take Seroxat (since I'm not a "professional"). And if you're going to take the decision to self-medicate in your own hands and ignore what the "professionals" say, should you really then be going to them for help when you're in over your head? Just playing devils advocate.

I'm not sure how to take your comment about the big drug companies. Are you trying to imply that bc no big pharma company makes heroin and there are no juicy profits to be made from it that the NHS simply doesn't want "us" to have it? Bc, actually, heroin is used by the NHS, but under the medical name diamorphine, and there is a big British pharma company manufacturing it. Can we just call a spade a spade and agree that heroin is not nice and that residents have a right to know what the medical center is up to without being accused of hysteria etc? I personally agree with your statement that it's the DMC trying to just make more revenue and what's annoying about the whole thing is that they didn't see the need to consult with their neighbours.