P4, P13 - why are these buses so infrequent?

[bil]

These buses come every 20 minutes and if one breaks down, its full or you just miss it you have to wait another 20 minutes. Sometimes I just want to cry. I have no hope this will get better as I saw a similar thread from 2011 😭😭

[redjam]

It's maddening. Keep meaning to write a moany email to TFL about this, not that it would make any difference but it might make me feel better. There are so many kids who want to use it on their way home as it stops near several big secondary schools (my daughter is one of them) but they never seem to run any more buses at peak times and consequently they're nearly always full. And yes, it's ages till the next one arrives. Infuriating.

[bil]

Yes it is infuriating.

I don't understand how TFL decide upon bus frequency. Once you are on the south circular there aren't many/any other bus services that you can use as an alternative and then change. You either get P13 or P4 but mostly get nothing for 20 minutes plus. Almost as bad as when I used to travel between Epsom and Ashtead by bus; just ended up walking!

This afternoon it took me 1 hour to get from Brixton station to The Harvester on lordship lane because I just missed the first P4 and once the next one came 25 minutes later had to stop because of a fault.

I once took the bus 3 from Brixton to West Dulwich on a Saturday afternoon . I just missed one but the next one came in minutes and there was another one behind. They were double deckers (not full because of the frequency. Really good service!

[dbboy]

If you just miss it, well their is a timetable published and YES sometimes you do have to wait longer because the one in front didn't arrive/stopped early. With the excessive amount of traffic on the roads it is not surprising buses take longer than expected plus with the frequent stops they make. However I do sympathise with you having had similar experiences at Crystal Palace Parade and buses being rammed full of school children or alternatively long waits between buses i.e. the 363, however the 227 is very frequent, I wonder why?

I agree that buses rammed full of school children can be infuriating, however once children got given free travel on buses it was inevitable that they would be rammed on the way to and back from school. Wouldn't you use something if it got given to you for free, I would.

If you have a look at the timetable at certain times like peak time, they actually do run more buses.

[redjam]

dbboy Wrote:

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> >

> I agree that buses rammed full of school children

> can be infuriating, however once children got

> given free travel on buses it was inevitable that

> they would be rammed on the way to and back from

> school. Wouldn't you use something if it got given

> to you for free, I would.

>

>

Er, school children on buses aren't the problem; that's the solution. If they weren't on buses they'd be picked up in cars, which would add far more congestion to the roads. Not all kids live within walking distance of secondary school.

(And yes, I know they can go by bike, and plenty do, but secondary school kids often carry a lot of stuff to school - instruments, books etc - so it's not always practical or safe.)

[rjsmall]

My wife and I use the P13 in the morning to take our daughter to school and barring the odd breakdown it is pretty reliable. In the evening however it is a different story with the bus timing being very irregular. I find this frustrating but I think it is hard to regulate the service due to the traffic flow along the South Circular. I use the TfL website to check the arrival time for the bus - doesn't help get it there any more quickly but at least you have an idea of how long you are going to have to wait. A couple more buses at peak times would be helpful.

[hertburs]

Is there a reason why both of these routes are operated with single decker buses? I presume that it is normally because they go under low bridges but I can't think of anywhere on the routes that this applies. The greater capacity of double deckers would certainly help.

[????]

hertburs Wrote:

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> Is there a reason why both of these routes are

> operated with single decker buses? I presume that

> it is normally because they go under low bridges

> but I can't think of anywhere on the routes that

> this applies. The greater capacity of double

> deckers would certainly help.

Yes - they are side road routes and the norm for these is single deckers for often very pragmatic reasons raround noise/size/traffic flow etc

[Penguin68]

The P13 travels along otherwise residential streets (i.e Underhill and Melford - no chance of a double decker there at all!), at least in part, where a double decker would be too long - and would cause jams. That's why that is a 'hopper' style bus, I'd guess. The same I think is true of parts of the P4 route.

Cross post with above, sorry!

[Jeremy]

I wonder if the gradient of Underhill Rd might cause issues for a fully loaded double decker?

[bil]

Unfortunately trains (and buses) arrive when they arrive so if you just miss the bus after a train or tube journey (the Victoria line tube is so frequent -it's brilliant) its just bad luck and you have to wait 20 minutes or take uber which is ?9!(so not an affordable alternative)

😔

[Penguin68]

When we last had snow the P13 was stranded at the bottom of the hill at Dunstan's Road. It couldn't make it either.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

There are commonly used double deckers that are the same width and length as the P4. Tulse Hill rail bridge is very low and I don't believe any double deckers go under there - which would explain the P13 problem. Maybe the P4 and the P23 have to share a fleet?

Btw you should all get the free "Bus Times" app; its amazing.

[singalto]

Someone I knew lived on Underhill rd and said that the buses caused vibrations as they passed so a double decker would be worse. The P13 is much shorter. When it runs on time, the P13 is a great little bus.

[Jeremy]

Penguin68 Wrote:

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> When we last had snow the P13 was stranded at the

> bottom of the hill at Dunstan's Road. It couldn't make it either.

Not surprising. But I mean under normal conditions. It is a very steep hill!!

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

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> Btw you should all get the free "Bus Times" app;

> its amazing.

Oh I have it. But it's not much use if you need to change onto another bus. I've also experienced buses mysteriously "falling off the radar" (perhaps a "this bus is now terminating at Camberwell Green" type scenario.. always a treat for all involved..)

[dbboy]

10 minutes late this morning, but it's a sunny day, ENJOY.

[hertburs]

I understand why the P13 would have problems with The Tulse Hill railway bridge if it was a double decker but I don't think the P4 would suffer from a similar problem.

[dbboy]

Think No.42 which went from single to double decker, a well as a nice chocolatey treat, ummmm ummmm!!

[Bic Basher]

The official timetable for the P4 is every 12 minutes, P13 is every 15 mins, 20 evenings and Sundays.

Reliability is a major issue due to traffic on the South Circular Road which affects both routes. The P4 was recently retendered to Stagecoach with no improvement to the service, nor longer buses which are required for this service.

[Angharad_L]

And to top up off the drivers are always rude! This morning the driver closed the doors on my son in his pram. When I shouted 'stop stop' I managed to get on the bus with the oram.

I went to tap my oyster and the drive avoids my eyes, so I prompt him that maybe he should be watching the doors and all I get in reply is a sarcastic 'oh, it's my fault'. Well YES it's your fault you trapped my toddler in the doors. Who else is to blame?

You can't get on at the front because of the poor design of the bus.

Tried to complain via the website and can only do it over the phone or by mail. Sigh.

[bil]

Angharad_L Wrote:

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> And to top up off the drivers are always rude!

> This morning the driver closed the doors on my son

> in his pram. When I shouted 'stop stop' I managed

> to get on the bus with the oram.

>

> I went to tap my oyster and the drive avoids my

> eyes, so I prompt him that maybe he should be

> watching the doors and all I get in reply is a

> sarcastic 'oh, it's my fault'. Well YES it's your

> fault you trapped my toddler in the doors. Who

> else is to blame?

>

> You can't get on at the front because of the poor

> design of the bus.

>

> Tried to complain via the website and can only do

> it over the phone or by mail. Sigh.

Yes I noticed that problem with prams/buggies; not being able to enter via the front of the bus. You have to enter through the rear doors and then leave the pram to go to the front to tap in..leaving baby and buggy alone in the middle. I'm sure the driver doesn't give you much time to race back before the bus moves either. You mums/dads have my sympathies!

[geobz]

The new Sadik Khant has changed the timetables... he sort of doesn't like South East.

185 is slower now, and 176 as well...

[drewd]

These two buses are super-useful and I wish they were more frequent. They are always busy - especially the P4.

[snooks]

Phwoar need to agree BUT this past 3 weeks the P13 has only be a wee bit late i.e.no more than 4 minutes. The drivers are rude and uncoperative but NOBODY seems to be taking ANY notice

[Bic Basher]

geobz Wrote:

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> The new Sadik Khant has changed the timetables...

> he sort of doesn't like South East.

>

> 185 is slower now, and 176 as well...

TfL plan to cut the 176 in June.