Dulwich Mead.

[Pugwash]

I am posting this on behalf of an elderly relative in relation to Dulwich Mead Sheltered Housing.

Hanover Housing own the freehold and appear to be going down the leaseholders route rather than their former private rented route (some years previously). Relative has been given contradictory information - that all leaseholders/residents have to be 'independent' and should they require carers in the future, this could invalidate their leasehold status. Contradiction appears to be that many residents at Dulwich Mead have carers either via Southwark Social Services or private carers arranged by the warden/manager. That should the resident have mobility problems and cannot get to the intercom to let in carers, key safes are not permitted nor are carers, (or even relatives) are not allowed keys. Hanover Housing do not appear to want to confirm or deny this information and are very difficult to contact.

Whilst my relative is physically and mentally able and does not need care, she is aware that sometime in the future her needs may change physically, or she may develop dementia - and will require carers to enable her to live a reasonably 'independent life' and to remain in her own home.

There is also the role of the warden/manager - who appears to be available weekdays only and is not on site. Again conflicting reports as to the duties of this person, and whether they extend to purchasing private care packages.

There does not appear to be a property available to purchase at the moment, so before showing an interest in purchasing and going on a waiting list, my relative wants to be assured that this unit is suitable for her current and future needs. She has visited in the past this building and likes the layout etc. If she purchases a one bedroom flat, she understands that there is a guest room available for short stay visitors, (for a fee per night).

She has received both good and bad reports of this unit and does not know how accurately these reports are bearing in mind people have different expectations of what a sheltered housing unit can provide. Also has anyone any concerns about the fabric and maintenance of the flats/building.

[PeckhamRose]

I would highly recommend you approach Southwark Leaseholders CAB in the first instance to have them check out the situation. They are at 8 Market Place Southwark Park Road but you have to make an appointment. They may be able to confirm the situation. Get their number off the web.

[Sally Eva]

Hanover Housing Association Dulwich Mead. Sales only. Nothing for sale

http://www.hanover.org.uk/properties/estates/dulwich-mead-dulwich/

some inside views and a sale price agreed subject to contract so (presumably) recent

http://www.burnetware.com/property/dulwich-mead-herne-hill-se24/burne-000072/1

[intexasatthe moment]

" invalidate their leasehold status" I think it's really unlikely that Hanover would seek to end the lease and regain possession of the flat because an elderly person requires carers .

I'm not sure of the current situation but about 5 years ago there were key safes at the entrance of Dulwich Mead and lots of carers .I'd be AMAZED if carers weren't allowed .

The roles of wardens/managers in sheltered housing are always vague .

" Hanover Housing do not appear to want to confirm or deny this information and are very difficult to contact." that sounds a bit confusing . Presumably contact has been made in order for them not to deny or confirm . I assume contact has been attempted with a regional office ,not Dulwich Mead .

[Pugwash]

Relative viewed a property there some years ago but did not have all her questions answered by the then warden/manager, whom she felt was rather evasive. Hanover Housing failed also to answer her questions and subsequently became difficult to contact as they did not return her phone calls.

Bearing in mind that things do change over a period of time, and my relative getting older, she is considering retirement properties again and would like to remain in the Dulwich/Herne Hill area.

IF information she has is correct, the same warden/manager is still in post.

[intexasatthe moment]

I wouldn't read too much into Hanover not returning calls or seeming to be vague . They have a variety of estates with differing terms and conditions so I imagine they find it hard to give a stock response .

Usually wardens are there as managers of the building and facilitators .I've never come across one who would take the responsibilty of actually arranging a care package though I would expect them to provide details to a resident or relative of how to go about doing so .IME there is huge variation in how helpful /competent wardens are .Some do the bare minium/nothing and relish enforcing "rules" .Others risk their own health and sanity by going the extra mile .

If the manager at Dulwich Mead was unwelcoming and giving the impression that a resident might loose their flat if they became frail/confused etc that would worry me .Although residents have their own homes and the manager/warden is only visiting so their influence would ,I think ,be minimal .

It would be quite normal to restrict key issue - often the keys on this type of development are suited so that one key will open both the residents individual flat door and the main entrance door to the building . So for security reasons their issue would be restricted . I would be surprised if key safes weren't allowed .

Hanover are a fairly large and reputable HA and Dulwich Mead ( which I used to visit ) is a pleasant and excellently situated property . It sounds from the details you've given that the manager isn't very welcoming but TBH I would be happy if a relative of mine purchased a flat there . Although all my relatives are ( and remained so into old age ) quite bolshy and well able to stand up for themselves .

Finally - below are a couple of extracts from factsheets on Hanover's website

"Your lease may state that only persons who are capable of living independently may

purchase a lease or reside within a property.

Often when a sale reaches a certain point this involves signing a declaration in the

presence of a legal representative. Often people in this situation will have a care

package which they receive privately in their own home to support them to live

independently at the estate."

"Most Hanover estates have an on-site manager who will be your first point of contact during office hours. The estate manager looks after running of the estate and ensures that the buildings and grounds are well maintained, and can also help you to access additional care and support if you need it.

Estate manager responsibilities vary according to location and we involve our residents in deciding and defining the services. Typical responsibilities include:

Welcoming new residents and explaining the services

Repairs to the building

Advice on local services

The appearance of the gardens, grounds and other shared areas

Service charges and payment advice

Advice on property adaptations"

[Pugwash]

Thanks - will pass this info onto relative - she does not have a computer.

Did hear from an old work colleague who had some past dealings with a lady in the Unit (who I believe has since died) that social services had arranged for their carers to go into this lady, but the warden/manager refused them entry and told the resident that she had to arrange private carers and had to go through her. I gather social services made a formal complaint to Hanover re the interference and attitude of the warden. As stated this was around 3 years ago.

[intexasatthe moment]

That's truly shocking to read Pugwash .

[alice]

agreed. how can such a person still be in post?

[Burbage]

alice Wrote:

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> agreed. how can such a person still be in post?

It is surprising at first glance. I'm no expert, but I think it's very unusual for a lease to explicitly discriminate against those who become unable to live independently, and I'm not sure it's entirely legal. It surely can't be right to, say, terminate a lease and evict a couple if one of them can't put their own socks on. But, as I said, I'm no expert, and I'm sure they've some exquisitely expensive lawyers.

From a business perspective, however, it makes perfect sense. For Hanover also sells enhanced care accommodation, apparently in separate compounds, and it would make good business to treat their run-of-the-mill retirement homes as feedlots for the pricier services. In which case a 'pay up or get out' policy is entirely cogent. Obviously, as a not-for-profit there aren't any shareholders trying to benefit, but if the pay of the bosses is performance-related, or they have interests in any preferred providers, that might not matter. In either case, I guess the job of the manager will be, at least in part, to prod those residents with a loosening grip on the perch, persuading them to sell up (presumably via Hanover) and move to something from the autumn catalogue.

At present, those two classes of accommodation are all that Hanover offers. But, curiously, they also own a chalk-pit, suggesting a sufficiently dynamic management might profitably find room for a synergistic expansion of their offerings. Assuming they haven't already.

[Pugwash]

I am aware of the 'all inclusive' retirement accommodation McCarthy and Stone are one of the providers of these properties. You can use their care services but as these are private carers/agency the cost is quite high and could amount to a couple of hundred pounds a week. Assuming that the charge is around ?15 per hour and that you need 4 hours care/shopping/domestic/cooking etc per day (?60).

Southwark owned Extra Sheltered Housing has on site carers which are paid for and costs are based on user's income and savings. Hyde Housing Extra SHU's also operate on same principle.

If Dulwich Mead has their own in house care agency it is understandable that they would not want social services input unless the person requiring care is on limited weekly income.

A few years ago, residents in a leasehold block of flats wanted to have the lease of one of their residents, terminated as she had set fire to her flat by falling asleep whilst smoking and under the influence of drink. They asked social services/psychiatric services to deem that this lady to lack capacity and to section her. The lady was deemed to have full capacity and there were no grounds for her to be sectioned. I often wondered what happened with the leaseholders application to the freeholder re this. I talked to a lawyer friend about this time re this case and he advised that it would have to be an extreme case for a leaseholder's lease to be evoked. So I assume that in the case of Hanover - they could not evict.

[Milkwood]

I am a long-time visitor to EDF, but this post has prompted me to join and hopefully answer some of the queries in this post. My mother has been a resident of Dulwich Mead for 8 years and I am a regular visitor there.

? Dulwich Mead is made up of retirement flats, the only ?sheltered housing? element is the alarm system which connects to a central call centre.

? All of the flats have key safes.

? Close family members have keys.

? There is a guest room available for a fee.

? There are a number of agencies, both private and via Social Services who visit residents daily. Carers are arranged by the leaseholder.

? The lease does specify that the leaseholder has to be able to manage their own affairs, but I would say that many of the current residents don?t to a lesser or greater degree. When residents do leave, it?s usually because they have become so poorly/frail that they require 24 hour care.

? There is an estate manager, not a warden, who is there during office hours. Her role is to look after the building, however she provides a great deal of support to the residents way over and above her job description. I know that she has refused to endorse ?care packages? from Social Services in the past because they have been woefully inadequate for the resident concerned and more about getting them out of hospital quickly. She has also provided much support to those residents whose next of kin are unwilling or unable to, and to those who have nobody. The manager has to ensure that the building is working safely for all of the residents and some people find it difficult to accept that they can?t change the rules to suit their particular situation. Our family have always found her to be incredibly accommodating and a huge asset to Dulwich Mead.

?The building has had a long-term programme of improvements and is in good condition. If any large-scale repairs not covered by the monthly service charges are required, they are put out to tender and the residents vote for their preferred option.

My feeling is that on the whole, it?s quite a harmonious place, the building is secure and well-maintained. The residents can be as involved in the community as they choose to be - there are regular social events throughout the year (often arranged by the Manager) and people seem to be quite engaged.

I would definitely recommend Dulwich Mead, but would advise that people need to be realistic in their expectations of what a retirement flat offers.

Hope that helps.

[Pugwash]

Thanks for the posting. It is good to get a positive response.