Student Protest

[????]

I'd have hoped some educated people had read David Copperfield....that hope's looking forlorn in academic circles nowadays.

[Brendan]

The guy who made the statue of liberty disapear?

[Brendan]

Plenty of solutions have been put forward quids. Fewer more specific university places distributed on merit etc.

Sharing the cost with the entire population is not as unfair as you make it out to sound. We all benefit from having doctors, bankers and artists. We would also all benefit from having the free secondary education which produces these people available purely on merit and not ability to pay*.

This country will be much stronger for that in 50 years times than it will be being populated with millions of graduates with devalued degrees and lifetimes of debt.

*Although I?m not holding my breath on that ever happening this side of the revolution

[????]

"Plenty of solutions have been put forward quids. Fewer more specific university places distributed on merit etc"

Agree with that absolutely, in fact it sounds suspiciously like wot it used to be like. But that is, of cosures, in the scourge of modern equality (mediocrity) both 'Elistist' and 'not fair' I can hear the bleeting starting already.

[????]

Snorky - you been keeping it real up there in Westminster or just doing your bit for global revolution on the EDF?

[Santerme]

huncamunca Wrote:

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> Santerme Wrote:

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> > huncamunca Wrote:

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> > -----

> > > Santerme Wrote:

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> > > -----

> > > > Sad and pathethic on behalf of the scum

> bags

> > > who

> > > > hijack events

> > > >

> > > > Remarkable restraint on the part of the

> > police

> > > >

> > > > The downward spiral continues

> > >

> > > yes,they havent killed anyone yet. well done

> > you

> > > coppers.

> >

> >

> > I'm sure you feel better for that little

> outburst

> >

> > Pat yourself on the back

>

>

>

> I have, thank you.

Excellent

Now if only more people could follow clear concise instructions it would make the police's job that much easier

But well done you at least

[Brendan]

???? Wrote:

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> Agree with that absolutely, in fact it sounds

> suspiciously like wot it used to be like. But that

> is, of cosures, in the scourge of modern equality

> (mediocrity) both 'Elistist' and 'not fair' I can

> hear the bleeting starting already.

Any more elitist and unfair than a system where the kids of the wealthy in the tory homelands don?t have to make the choice about whether or not to go to university because mummy and daddy will pay the fees anyway whereas an immensely talented kid from a normal background may realistically have to choose not to go to university because of the debt it will land them in?

Conservatives across the land may be crusting their calvins in delight at the prospect but even if we leave a decent persons moral obligation to fairness out of the equation that sort of situation is just counterproductive.

[????]

"Plenty of solutions have been put forward quids. Fewer more specific university places distributed on merit etc"

So you don't want this now Brendan? Or you never did? Or you want poor people especially without their priveliged education to get crap degrees and debt? Or you want tories all shot? Or you don't have any constructiive solution just than contrariness? Easy role to play.

Or maybe you've found the money tree.

[????]

I've said my bit on counteracting priveliged private education and increasing social mobility - private schools lose their charitable status unless 10% of their pupils are from the poorest 10% of households. But that's of course elitist and recognising what a failure much of our state education is so would again start the bleating, the fact that it would work being neither here or there. Let's bring all the high standards down rather than raising any up.

'Nother thread I guess.

[Brendan]

Never said I didn?t.

It seems like a good idea and I?m struggling to see how you see it as incompatible with my last points.

No, haven?t you been listening?

That would be a good place to start.

Don?t underestimate the value of contrariness.

[????]

I don't, I'm surprised Sean hasn't yet pulled me up for this :))

[SeanMacGabhann]

I dropped out of this when Brendan made be laugh out loud with his David Copperfield come-back

I'm also trying really hard to not get dragged into debates which just go round and round - particularly with people who have spent too much time/not enough time at airports

[????]

Is that what Brendan and I get categorised as nowadays? I dunno.

He's done the David Copperfield one before...which shows I have too. It made me laugh (first time).

[SeanMacGabhann]

I must have missed it the first time (Brenda's come back I mean)

I didn't mean to suggest such arguments were other people's fault either btw - I get sucked in and become part of the noise amd isntead of people agreeing on common ground (I agree with you on what's wrong now for the most part, as well as a favourable report on this government, with some qualifications) before talking about alternatives it becomes part polarised shouting match

(Although I would argue that the tone of your early posts in the last couple of days suggest the image of a man who's ridden across the Dakota plains for days without a drink, barging into a saloon and looking for a fight)

[????]

;-)

...a bit more reasoned today surely?

[SeanMacGabhann]

Yes ? and just as soon as you stop pointing that gun at me under the table I might answer again ;-)

[charliecharlie]

ref the downward spiral....

it started with Mrs T, a very nasty weasley piece of work if you ask me...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/southyorkshire/content/images/2009/04/07/mrs_thatcher_1984_getty_350x250.jpg

we can thanks her for pumping up materialistic values and selling/breaking up anything state owned she could lay her hands on... that was the begining of the debt ridden hole we found/find ourselves in!!!

*They all are all a bunch of lying, cheating little shits... think I better get my black balaclava out....

*(and I am not talking about students...)

[charliecharlie]

oh yes... and the next generation of bright, educated people being beholden to the banks till they are 40 or 50 yrs old...

hhhmmm.... I wonder how well they will mark themselves on that marvelous 'Happiness' index that we will all be using to gauge our moods.... (thank you David C for all your lovely patronising ideas... Big Society my arse... we are not Tellie Tubbies you know...)

I smell trouble brewing BIG time!!!

[seamusmac]

This man is bringing about the greatest change of the 21st century and has never raised a fist in anger.

"I have no enemies, and no hatred. None of the police who have monitored, arrested and interrogated me, the prosecutors who prosecuted me, or the judges who sentence me, are my enemies. While I?m unable to accept your surveillance, arrest, prosecution or sentencing, I respect your professions and personalities, including Zhang Rongge and Pan Xueqing who act for the prosecution at present. I was aware of your respect and sincerity in your interrogation of me on December 3.

For hatred is corrosive of a person?s wisdom and conscience; the mentality of enmity can poison a nation?s spirit, instigate brutal life and death struggles, destroy a society?s tolerance and humanity, and block a nation?s progress to freedom and democracy. I hope therefore to be able to transcend my personal vicissitudes in understanding the development of the state and changes in society, to counter the hostility of the regime with the best of intentions, and defuse hate with love....

I do not feel guilty for following my constitutional right to freedom of expression, for fulfilling my social responsibility as a Chinese citizen. Even if accused of it, I would have no complaints."

? Liu Xiaobo, 23 December 2009

[Dickensman]

If I look back on my basic education what I took from it after 10 years of regular attendance is my times tables and being able to interact with other secondary modern rejects.

That is the sum total of what I've used regularly 50 years after leaving school, my times tables are used almost daily, and the other useful thing was taking a reading from a rule but that I learned from my apprenticeship.

I could read before I went to school but I would include it as I found some great books at school which I consider a good read.

My apprenticeship was from 16 to 21, I went to college one day a week which to the most part was irrelevant, but I enjoyed mixing with the other guys who also thought it was pretty much a waste of time but preferred to go to college for the same reasons, it was a doss.

Most of the useful stuff was learned from the tradesman you worked with and as there were many one learned different techniques from each one, and you learned most from the good ones who stood no nonsense.

They were often angry and resentful but you learned more from them out of fear as you did not want to upset or provoke them into more anger by doing something in a clumsy or ham fisted manner as that would incite them to a dangerous rage.

My youngest sister who was more academic went to a school where you could take O and A levels. The top two girls in her year at school went on to university, one of whom became the famous Jill Archer the one who married Phil.

The rest of them left school and became typists or whatever else was available to earn money.

My children who are not nearly as academic as my sister both did uni' one of them is still there. The vast majority of their school year went on to university too, it seems everyone goes now but there are no more opportunities in the work place than in the 50s and 60s and probably less. So we are giving people this higher education to serve in a bar, or work in a shop. I have no axe to grind with either job but you certainly don't need a degree to do them.

In Germany they don't seem to finish their education until their early thirties and their the complaint is exactly the same in terms of what jobs are available and people asking why do they bother.

I have wondered about the way education is delivered to the pupil and just how relevant it is to real life, I for one would recommend a far more practical type of education for life skills.

How to run a house and balance the budget to avoid unnecessary debt would be advantageous for most people.

Learning how to cook, wash and iron clothing, would be a useful subject for both males and females.

Wood and metal work would be good for all pupils too.

Housing maintenance is a constant source of misery for many people throughout their lives, and the more practical skills learned at school, the less intimidated one is by them when you are left to one's own devices.

Gardening for produce might be considered a useful skill to learn at school.

I have felt for many years a stricter discipline in the classrooms would benefit the teacher and pupil alike.

A stroke of the cane for the rowdy and/or disruptive wouldn't go amiss,

and would be a positive benefit for many pupils, for some obnoxious parents too.

Recently I watched a program where a bunch of Amish teenagers went to live in Derbyshire for a few months. They found no difficulty in making a hen-house for their hosts, and digging a substantial portion of untilled land and creating a garden. I was very impressed at their confidence to tackle and complete a job which would be beyond the scope of most adults, who would have to buy a hen-house rather than build one, and hire some one with a rotavator to till the land.

My point after this long winded ramble was whether it is worth the investment, when so little of what you pay for is valid?

To be left with such a huge debt at the end

when there are so few options, and such poorly paid opportunities to clear it.

[Santerme]

What I took from university was the ability to learn, churn and regurgitate information in a format which I was able to make subjective judgements about, to present them and defend them if necessary.

I did English and History as a double.

It never equipped me for my military career...training and experience did that.

As Plutarch said a mind is a fire to be kindled, not a vacumn to be filled.

[zeban]

Dickensmen wrote:

there are no more opportunities in the work place than in the 50s and 60s and probably less. So we are giving people this higher education to serve in a bar, or work in a shop. I have no axe to grind with either job but you certainly don't need a degree to do them.

I absolutely agree Dickensmen. Just because more people go today it doesn't mean that degrees mean less, it just means more people have access to higher education which is a good thing. Employers should invest more in graduates by offering training opportunties rather than asking graduates to do 'work experience' which is expected to be done for free. How can people but the wealthy afford to do this, especially if you have to pay rent. I've seen many very bright graduates stuck in low paid basic positions which don't ask anything from them-they're not challenging, and don't develop them.

[Chick]

Santerme Wrote:

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> Sad and pathethic on behalf of the scum bags who

> hijack events

>

> Remarkable restraint on the part of the police

>

> The downward spiral continues

http://jodymcintyre.wordpress.com/2010/12/10/week-76-student-protests-part-three/

[Santerme]

Chick Wrote:

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> Santerme Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Sad and pathethic on behalf of the scum bags

> who

> > hijack events

> >

> > Remarkable restraint on the part of the police

> >

> > The downward spiral continues

>

>

>

>

> http://jodymcintyre.wordpress.com/2010/12/10/week-

> 76-student-protests-part-three/

You don?t bring down governments by standing around and shuffling your feet.

No you bring it down via the ballot obx in a democracy...

[daizie]

MEDIA STUDIES STUDENTS. Stop protesting. Under the new 23k threshold, you will never have to pay back your fees.