wikileaks

[Tarot]

Sabotage and cyber terrorism, probably the start of a new kind of war.

Even madmen need watching. Dont forget Hitler,

[mockney piers]

I know, you're right. Today a split condom, tomorrow the Sudetenland....

Bugger, Godwin.

[Santerme]

Assange arrested and refused bail.

[Brendan]

Consensually or not?

[louisiana]

Keef Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I also cant help thinking that the people who are

> most up in arms about this, are the same people

> who are convinced 9/11 was a big American plot,

> and Diana was killed by the royal family.

If this means what I think it means, cheap shot and easy way to write off a whole lot of very sensible people.

Though I have no clear idea exactly what you mean by "the people who are most up in arms about this". What is "this"?

AFAIK, supporters of some openness have not yet (a) proposed kidnapping anyone's son or (b) proposed assassinating or murdering anyone. Yes, there are some really strange ones on the other side, and some of them are too close to power for comfort.

[Keef]

Louisiana, I've never said I disagree with wikileaks as such. I have in fact said that I am generally all for transparency, with some exceptions. It's just a few people who have been shouting about this (I didn't actually mean on this forum, although one or two perhaps) remind me of mental conspiracy theorists.

[Dickensman]

Even madmen need watching. wrote Tarot

I assume you have the same feelings for 'postman' Assange as Santerme then Tarot.

[HAL9000]

Operation Kill-Two-Birds-With-One-Stone

The Mission: to disseminate the following information to our enemies without appearing to betray the confidences of our friends and take down the potentially problematic Wikileaks website in the process.

1. Inform Iran that its supposed closest Arab allies are actually baying for its blood.

2. Inform North Korea that its supposed closest ally, China, could live with a unified peninsular under South Korean control.

3. Inform potentially wayward US allies that terrorist targets lie within their own borders.

4. .... add favourite message here ....

Fall Guy: Julian Assange.

Weakness: Cannot keep dick under control.

Trap: Honey Pot.

[Loz]

4. We can really take the piss by saying rude things about various world leaders. You know, things we've we've always wanted to say, but 'diplomacy' meant we weren't allowed to. What a wheeze! Let's start by calling Kim Jong-il 'Flabby'. Ha ha. And Berlesconi "feckless, vain, and ineffective". Oh, what laughs!

[Manda]

See the URL for a link to a blog I found on the subject, it's fascinating reading... it explains Assange's motives and gives details on the rape allegations (which were retroactively brought against him after the wiki-leaks.)

Julian Assange, defending our democracies (despite their owners' wishes)

[Dickensman]

Great link Manda!

[nashoi]

It isn't likely that Wikileaks has released anything not already widely known throughout the diplomatic world and I think the US government is more concerned by this as a precedent. Assange has just given everyone a titillating glimpse behind the staffroom door. Though I agree governments are excessively concerned with secrecy, often to their own detriment, the idea espoused by people on here that everything could and should be made open is just childish nonsense. Even this forum relies to a fair degree on a PM function to keep things running smoothly. If we can't discuss missing cats and the best curries without a degree of confidentially creeping in, do you really expect diplomats to operate without it?

[Keef]

Word!

[louisiana]

Piece by Naomi Wolf in the Huffington Post

[Tarot]

Mind you there was always a chance of a few answers coming to light.

Like what happened to that german dentist stalking Diana, and shouting in the crowd,"Diana,they are going to kill you"

he was arrested and never heard of again,

Maybe even information on the G8 summits,about how to milk all us mugs.

[mockney piers]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/war/just-because-we're-crushing-wikileaks%2c-it-doesn't-mean-you're-next%2c-say-governments-201012033317/

[Dickensman]

Great links guys.

I suppose Wikileaks has done for the world what Private Eye has done for this country.

They both pierce the soft underbelly of society, and both are highly relevant and should be preserved.

When you think of how many court cases the "Eye" has had to fight it is surprising that it still exists today.

[plimsoul]

haven't read all posts so sorry if i repeat. what i have particularly enjoyed is seeing america's shock at discovering the true nature of our royals. biggotted and in a bad mood: moi?

[Brendan]

I?m going to stop approaching this from the point of view of someone who has worked intimately with governments on anti-corruption and transparency initiatives as my cynicism at the bald faced hypocrisy of the British government may eschew from the issue of why Joe Public should be interested in what has come to light.

So as the Public, Joe Public I have right clicked on wikipedia and copied the summaries of the specific revelations about the UK which have come out of this whole business and, the rights and wrongs of press freedom and government transparency aside, these are the questions I would like to ask my representatives, the government, about them.

"U.K. Foreign Office officials misled the public over Diego Garcia, and privately admitted no regret over the eviction of the Chagos islanders (Chagossians)."

So public servants misled the public. Am I still paying these people?s salaries? If so why?

Secondly, why are people who do not care about the human cost of their actions allowed into public office? Allowing someone of such temperament anywhere near government at all beggars belief.

"U.K. Foreign Office officials concealed from Parliament a loophole in the ban on use and storage of cluster bombs, allowing the U.S. to store the munitions on U.K. territory."

So they used a loophole in a piece of legislation to allow a military ally to store arms which would normally be considered illegal. Ok I can see how in certain circumstances this may have been necessary but they intentionally deceived the House in order to do so. Isn?t there some sort of law against that?

There isn?t? Really? Well there bloody well should be.

No, to be quite honest I don?t give a dam if every MP from the last few decades has to face criminal charges because of it.

"The U.K. Ministry of Defence's director general for security policy told Ellen Tauscher, U.S. Under Secretary of State for Arms Control and International Security Affairs, that the U.K. government had "put measures in place to protect your interests during the UK inquiry into the causes of the Iraq war"."

So these ?independent inquiries? are just a smokescreen to appease me, Joe Public. I?m not sure which I am angrier about, the fact that you obviously hold me, your employer, in such contempt or the fact that you?re wasting my own fucking money on deceiving me.

"Prince Andrew, Duke of York, was noted as saying "The Americans don?t understand geography. Never have. In the UK, we have the best geography teachers in the world!" "

So a member of the royal family is rude, pompous and by all accounts a bit of an idiot. This isn?t really a revelation but please explain to me why this prat is actually engaged in serious diplomatic work?

"Secretary of State David Miliband directed much of his attention to the final stages of Sri Lankan Civil War in order to win the votes of Tamils in the UK."

That?s nothing, I bought my lunch off him at last years Notting Hill carnival. He was blacked-up and running a jerk chicken stall to show his solidarity.

He even called me brother. If only he knew.

"The U.S. dismissed U.K. concerns about the use of RAF Akrotiri to stage U-2 spy plane flights."

I share your concerns about U2 and feel that despite U.S. pressure we must do everything in our power to keep Bono in America.

"The British government secretly supported the early release of Abdelbaset Ali al-Megrahi, who was convicted of carrying out the Lockerbie bombing. The British government had previously stated that the release, authorised by the Scottish government, was "a mistake" which it regretted."

I suspected as much all along. The depressing thing is I?m so used to being lied to by you it doesn?t even surprise me.

[Chick]

Great post Brendan.

[Dickensman]

Don't wrap it up Brendan, tell it to 'em straight.

[louisiana]

The Chagossians have been treated so shabbily throughout. (6)

Like you, Brendan, I'm both unsurprised and angry at some of what passes for government, at our expense (in both senses).

[mockney piers]

Indeed much noise was made about a secret deal with Libya* to protect business interests, and the government were utterly outraged that anyone could suggest a thing 'wot me guv, do something that would get the Sun and Daily Mail up in arms and lose me votes, that's a scandalous suggestion and no way jose'

'Oh, it seems I did actually lie to you all about that, but you know, it was in the national interest, well some lobbyists and party funders' interests, and of course in the interests of my votes come the election'

Still up for secrecy?

"please explain to me why this prat is actually engaged in serious diplomatic work?"

Actually it's not really diplomatic work, he goes around selling our weapons to people, hence why he was outraged that British justice my have something to say about illegal bribes to foreign parties to get them to buy our weapons. How dare the little people have a say....Joe Public's too stupid to be trusted with knowledge, power or a say so about how we, the better people, conduct ourselves don't you know. It's for his own good ok ya.

Now I'm being childish nashoi, but nonsense it ain't!!

*Actually it would be REALLY interesting to find out just how much the gov't knows about the case full stop. Private Eye for years has said that there is some juicy stuff to come out, and part of the reason why the government acquiesced so easily was because they didn't want Magrahi's defence team to go public with lots of inconvenient stuff (or truth/facts as they are otherwise known) that may include knowledge that Magrahi didn't do it and was very likely a scapegoat.

[Dickensman]

I believe that self opinionated racist bigot SteveT had mentioned that in previous posts.

[Huguenot]

Gosh, so many things panging around!

I saw Julian Assange on telly, and I thought he sounded like a bit of a prat who dressed up smug self-absorption in words he'd read off a pamphlet in a smoky student cellar. Bit of a prat, but I'd still have a beer with him.

The Swedish case is a 'technical' assault. It assumes that a woman who consented to sex with a condom did not necessarily consent if the condom split. However, to be found guilty or not depends on mens rea (intent), and this is why the first girl changed her accusation of rape to 'deliberately splitting the condom'. There is no doubt in my mind that this accusation is vexatious and revisionist (they changed their stories). Whether the motive is hatred of men, injury from scorn, or the CIA I have no idea.

The leaks didn't tell us anything we didn't know already. Diplomatically they're painful, but these are professionals after all. We rely as a society on 'little white lies' (oh, I'm so pleased to see you!), and it shouldn't be surprising that these are needed in international politics too. In that sense 'absolute transparency' creates dysfunction.

However, I don't think there are any deaths that could be directly attributed to Prince Andrew calling the French a bunch of poofters.

If the yanks deliberately leaked this then it was a poor calculation. They've made themselves look like incompetents, and right wing politicians seeking execution make the country look like it's run by slack-jawed members of the KKK.

I don't think absolute transparency is an appropriate and practical way to govern. I would if I thought public opinion was based on informed debate and healthy rationalism. However, the pervasiveness of climate change denial and homeopathy tells me the public far prefer to be bloody minded and purposefully ignorant. They're easily swayed by self-advancing dickheads, even if it disadvantages themselves.

I know for a fact that absolute transparency is rubbish for negotiation. A good negotiation needs to look like a win:win, but it's important that both sides walk away thinking they 'win' more than the other. That's human nature. To deny it is to be in thrall to some sort of 'Platonic' human being. Sadly the philosopher-king was an abstract dream.

As entertainment, Wikileaks has been marvellous.