Goose Green 1768

[Chener Books]

Here is an extract of Roque's 1768 map of Surrey

With all the caveats that apply to interpreting Rocque's maps.

(1) The northern boundary of East Dulwich Parish follows the field boundary where Choumert Road now runs.

(2) Note the location of Peckham Rye. This might be the root of the LCC's 1951 legal problem of specifying the location of Peckham Rye. This may also explain the Court Plea (unspecified date in the range 1492 to 1547) held in the National Archives (Item reference REQ 2/8/85) about "lands and tenements in East Dulwich [in Camberwell] called Peckham Rye".

(3) Greendale is more clearly delineated than on later maps. This may be the original western boundary of Friern Manor. Greendale also roughly follows the watershed between the Effra and Pec basins.

(4) The Pec does not run through Peckham.

(5) Dulwich Hill is an odd geological feature. It seems to have the same geological structure as Glastonbury Tor.

Does anyone have any more information?

John K

[Huggers]

I always knew us Bellendeonians were really East Dulwich.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Goofe Green. How charming.

Does this mean we have to meet naked to greet the dawn on mid-Summer's morning on top of Dulwich Hill?

[Brendan]

I'm not spending the morning naked in a Wetherspoons.

Again.

[PeckhamRose]

Is that the river running up Peckham Rye park, starting between the y and the e of Peckham Rye?

What an amazing picture and thanks so much for posting it.

Sorry I can not help with any of the questions though!

[DulwichFox]

More pics of River Pec(k) Here

[Narnia]

What are the large lettered D R E part of?

[Chener Books]

BRIXTON HUNDRED

[Chener Books]

The original course of the Pec before it was culverted can still be seen at the edge of Peckham Rye Park immediately opposite Piermont Green.

The "stream" running through Peckham Rye Park is an artificial late Victorian landscaping feature dating from c1890. More details are here.

John K

[Sporthuntor]

Surely "Dulwich Hill" is what we now know as Denmark/Herne/Dog Kennel Hills. They certainly seem that steep if you are on your bike!

[Brendan]

Yes it is.

And don't call me Shirley.

[Sporthuntor]

Nice tribute! RIP Leslie

[ianr]

I see that the revamped Southwark site now has an old maps page which includes this one.

[Bic Basher]

After looking at Southwark's old map site. I see Dulwich had a fire station where the BT exchange is and if I've looked correctly, there were houses on Lordship Lane where the Estate now is, with a sports field at the Common end.

[computedshorty]

The East Dulwich Fire Station was on the site where the Telephone Exchange known as Townley exchange is now, then next the Firemans Alley then about ten detatched houses with a large front garden, I remember a tram coming off the rails and ending up in the third ones garden these houses reached up the the then Grove Tavern, going round the corner along Duwich Common there were about a dozen lock up garages then Whatneys Brewery Sports Ground up to Firemans Alley.

The Estate was built in the fifties for Camberwell Borough Council that used SE22 that later Amalgamated as Southwark Council.

[Bic Basher]

Thanks for that information. Incidentally I remember reading that the Estate area was in the SE21 postcode area, even after it opened (mid 50s?) but when did it become part of SE22?

[Chener Books]

Is the Lordship Lane Estate part of East Dulwich?

The Lordship Lane Estate area is of interest because of the uncertain South Western border of Friern Manor with Dulwich Manor and whether Friern people had any common rights taken away by private enclosure acts of Parliament.

The will have also been other boundary "adjustments" after the introduction of the Copyhold Act.

Note that Dulwich Manor and what we now know as the Dulwich Estate are not identical or co-terminous entities.

The enclosure of of Dulwich Common (singular) is sometimes stated to have been in 1809.

1809 was the date the Dulwich Estate drew up an enclosure map (which may have been 'improved'). It is commonly reported that the Act permitted the enclosure of 130 acres of Dulwich Common.

There were actually two Dulwich enclosure Acts.

The first Private Act of Parliament was passed in 1805. Unfortunately it was an unprinted Act. It is not clear that anyone has seen or read a copy of the Act in over 200 years.

The 1808 Private Act of Parliament was "The Dulwich Building Act 1808". History books say this was to enable the Dulwich Estate to grant leases longer than 21 years. The New provision was to issue 64 leases with a "fine" to enble the leases to be extended a further 21 years, bringing the maximum lease to 85 years. These must have changed again later to permit 99 year leases. The history books are silent on other provisions of the Act.

However, Macmillan's Magazine, Volume 17, 1868, states in respect of the 1808 Act that, "Two hundred acres of coppice or woodland besides arable and pasture were to be reserved [...]". This reads like a second enclosure.

There is also a stray unsupported reference that Cox's Walk was only enclosed as late as 1929 [sic].

John K

[Bic Basher]

Without the historical references, I've always found it hard to declare where the LLE actually is? East Dulwich, Dulwich? Just outside Forest Hill (as the station is nearer than ED/ND) etc. That's despite Dulwich Park being next door!

Not helped being on the boundary of SE21 with SE23 and SE26 nearby.

[computedshorty]

Lost Railway Stations of East Dulwich.

Lordship Lane Railway Station SE22 was at the bottom of Sydenham Hill, London Road, Lordship Lane, junction.

It could be got to from Lordship Lane up Lapse Wood Walk and through an archway under the railway track to the booking hall in the main building of the station, the high embankment that was built to allow the bridge to be built to cross the Lordship Lane.

This bridge had to be built to the rigid standards laid down by the Dulwich Estate Governor?s and never had any advertising on it.

It was possible to see from Horniman Gardens the trains passing from Lordship Lane Station to Langton Rise, we liked to look in through the small windows in the pubs side wall and see the horses, you could see the train going to Honour Oak Station from Wood Vale.

Honour Oak Railway Station SE22 was in Wood Vale corner of Forest Hill Road the entrance was from Wood Vale facing the

Cemetery, up steps next to a wooden building that was a Sweet Shop, there was a sizable Goods Yard that was used by Coal Merchant?s, and building materials, also the Funeral Directors used it to receive the deceased from inner London.

I wonder if Boris Karloff ever used the station, living within a few hundred yards.

[jack bauer]

To Bic Basher

With regards to Lordship Lane and where its situated,in the old days Dulwich as a whole was one manor over the years it was sold into two parts,The people that owned these manors were also known as Lordships hence the name of Lordship Lane as it acted as the divide between both manors so it is actually a central part of Dulwich as a whole.

I am not too sure on the dates but I do have it tucked away somewhere if want me to dig it out and post it.

[Chener Books]

A little problem....

There were two manors: Dulwich and (Camberwell) Friern.

There is little evidence to support the tradition that Lordship Lane was the boundary between the two manors.

John K

[jack bauer]

Ironic

As i read that from a Dulwich history book bought from your shop =)

[Bic Basher]

Hi Jack, no that's fine thanks. I'm more interested in when and why the LL Estate was changed from SE21 to 22. I've seen archives of when the estate was part of SE21 in the sixties, but no specific date of when the GPO decided to move them over to ED.

[Huguenot]

I'm not sure that you're barking up the right tree here BB. There have been literally thousands of changes to postcode boundaries in London over the last century, and none of them of any consequence.

So far as I understand, postcodes are defined according to the practical administration of postal delivery. They have no relation to government administration or feudal legacy apart from a loose connection with place names (WR is Worcester, but East Duwlich is SE London for example).

As a consequence they change every time a new set of postal addresses is generated - for example by a housing development or an industrial estate.

Loosely they're segmented according to areas with linked access (neighborhoods) and equal postal workload. Around 15 houses will have the same postcode, and this is because it's estimated that within a 15 house area there will be sufficient local knowledge to resolve identity/delivery issues.

The correlation between ED electoral ward and SE22 postal district is only about 60%

Even electoral wards are supposed to be more about equal administrative units rather than historical legacy. Mind you, they're all bummed up because of political chicanery.

Likewise bundles of government administrative areas such as Primary Care Trusts are bundled up into 'Output Areas' and 'Super Output Areas'

Either way, you can't learn anything about history from any of them.

(I only know this because it's a great spectator sport)

[computedshorty]

After many hours of searching I have found a postcard in my collection of the Rustic Shelter in Dulwich Park near the Rhododendron's, in the background can be seen the back of East Dulwich Fire Station built in 1892 with its tower to the right can be one of the splendid houses that were there before the Estate was built.

The postcard was posted in June 1909 at 5.45 p.m the cost of one Half Penny.

The message on the back tells that a servent can not meet her brother as expected as her mistress wont let her leave until 3.30 ater she has had her dinner served. Posted in Herne Hill to William Day. 135 South Street Walworth.

Picture Att.