Martin McGuinness

[JohnL]

???? Wrote:

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> Yup, agreed - take the Scots out of Ireland and

> stop blaming the English. :)

David Davis has said that if Ireland unites at some stage

then NI automatically becomes part of the EU.

Nicola Sturgeon might have taken note. We might yet have

a Celtic nation.

[Mick Mac]

JohnL Wrote:

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> ???? Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> David Davis has said that if Ireland unites at

> some stage

> then NI automatically becomes part of the EU.

>

That's a two stage process, the latter is the last of everyone's worries.

[red devil]

Mick's trolling = Mick's never had a thread this popular before... :)

[Alan Medic]

Doesn't anyone have a job on this thread?

[Mick Mac]

red devil Wrote:

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> Mick's trolling = Mick's never had a thread this

> popular before... :)

I tried to leave it - but this seemed an unconnected point tbh (future rather than past)....

[Mick Mac]

Alan Medic Wrote:

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> Doesn't anyone have a job on this thread?

It is my job.

To make people happy.

[Alan Medic]

You're not very good 😊 at it then.

[Mick Mac]

I know. Tongue firmly in cheek AM.

[????]

JoeLeg Wrote:

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> Oh now you can just do one Mick, you know full

> well what you were insinuating.

>

> Your OP is essentially a justification for his

> actions, and a declaration that the British are

> responsible for everything. If you want to have a

> wider debate on Ireland then start a separate

> thread, but any discussion about McGuinness in

> this respect is going to include the fact that he

> was a morally dubious individual, to say the

> least.

>

>

> You're not worth any more of my time.

>

> You're a twat. That's a totally unneccesary

> comment designed purely to make you look good and

> put someone else on the wrong side of an argument.

>

>

> Transparent, and pathetic.

To quote someone on here just a couple of days ago.......tee hee, you inconsistent hypocrite Joe lol

[JoeLeg]

You do make me laugh quids, you do make me laugh...

For someone who claims not to care what others think of them...oh deary deary me.

[Mick Mac]

He never makes me laugh.

[DaveR]

"The lack of (formal) education on this issue within England, the inability to be objective as a result of decades of media propaganda, and the inability of many people in England to hold their hands up and accept their country's role in instigating and prolonging this problem is shocking and abhorrent.

And as regards no one on this thread agreeing with me? Well we are in England. You will find if you ask about this around the world, you will find it's you in the minority."

Provocative bullshit of the highest order. Your spiel might go down well in a Boston bar but to suggest that's because you've found a more knowledgeable audience is laughable.

[Mick Mac]

Dave. You win the hard core prize for this thread big boy.

And yes, I'm playing the "man".

[malumbu]

This thread has lost me. But I think that this is very relevant as we seem to be lurching to the right, rewriting history and about to embark on something very damaging.

So I lived in an Irish area during the 'troubles' and briefly worked in an Irish pub at that time.

I remember when we went from "no blacks no Irish" in the mid 1980s to the "this is great, what a craic" (surely not due just to Van Morrison and Shane MacGowan on thier own?)

I've enjoyed my various visits both South and North of the (Irish) border

And relating to my thread on English footy fans, the English Nationalism thread and this current one - I remember 20 odd years ago being at a match at the end of the season and chants of "no surrender to the IRA" and I thought WTF do you know about Irish politics and would you really fight for your cause?

That's not an endorsement of terrorism, just my frustration at mass ignorance and my worry of a pernicious future.

Can someone cheer me up please?

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

"I remember when we went from "no blacks no Irish" in the mid 1980s to the "this is great"

No, you don't. That's an absolute invention.

"WHEN THE first Race Relations Act was passed 50 years ago in December 1965, I saw an immediate difference on the streets of Britain. Straight away the act got rid of the racist ?No Blacks, No Irish, No Dogs' signs that were so common in the windows of houses with rooms to rent," says former mayor of Southwark, Sam King."

http://www.voice-online.co.uk/article/bring-back-no-blacks-no-irish-no-dogs

[Mick Mac]

I think Im now lost on my own thread. (:

[Lordship 516]

@DaveR

"Provocative bullshit of the highest order. Your spiel might go down well in a Boston bar but to suggest that's because you've found a more knowledgeable audience is laughable."

The level of ignorance amongst the indigenous English of their colonialism in Ireland displayed on here is risible; people talk about 'sides' & democracy in the UK but in 1921/22 democracy went out the door & the minority of two counties in Ireland [Down & Antrim] held the London Government to ransom and forced the Six Counties [now Northern Ireland] into existence - Churchill & Lloyd George cared little about democracy then. They then allowed James Craig to declare "a Protestant parliament for a Protestant people" & invented the gerrymandering process to achieve that. The misery in NI since then flowed from all that denial of rights to the rest of the population. Unionist bullies prevented Catholics from having jobs, having houses, having education, having businesses. So-called Special Constables ['B' Specials] roamed the streets beating up Catholics at will. Atrocities occurred on both sides but the main genesis was Unionist bullying. In October 1968 the NI police violently attacked civilians who were peacefully protesting for civil rights & one-man one-vote, the government did nothing to prevent further police violence. In January 1969 Major Ronald Bunting led a mob of bullies that hurled rocks at a Civil Rights 4-day march from Belfast to Derry that was mainly composed of unarmed students & elected politicians and the police actively helped Bunting & his thugs [with many off-duty police amongst them] by harassing the marchers & finally erupting in a wide scale violent attack on the marchers at Burntullet on the 4th day. These events are regarded as the beginning of what came to be known as the 'troubles' and gave rise to the re-establishment of the IRA which eventually morphed into the PIRA which McGuiness was attracted to. There were many other episodes that further exacerbated the situation that lasted for 50 years but which thankfully led to peace and a lot more equality of treatment for all people in NI - McGuiness participated in all stages of this evolution & NI is a better place today. It is unlikely it would have happened without the vioence - such are the ways of humanity.

Indigenous English people have a particular view of the world that many others find strange; justifying the past & dismissing it as done & dusted doesn't wash with everyone - England, through their robber barons ransacked the world, accumulated treasures against the will of many nations & still many people glorify the great empire. Whereas you are not directly responsible you are accountable as a nation and restitution is reasonable as an expectation from those affected.

I could give you a long list of British Army war crimes in Ireland, South Africa, including two cowardly Bloody Sunday massacres of innocent civilians [1920 Dublin & 1972 Derry], the creation of the concentration camp in South Africa & for the MauMau; starvation of populations in Ireland, India & elsewhere whilst exporting their food to England, the burning of their homes & ransacking of their farms & businesses, Amritsar etc, etc.

General Farrar-Hockley said in a public interview on his retirement in 1982 that the British Army would never defeat the IRA & that the IRA would never defeat the British Army & the sooner the government commenced discussions/negotiations with the IRA the sooner the war would be over. However, as Ms Thatcher was in hock to the unionist vote this took many years to come about, so it can be said that it was the British Governments intransigence that prolonged the war in Ulster. It took the mild John Major & the unlikely Albert Reynolds to commence the negotiation of peace & establish the foundation of a new era for Northern Ireland.

McGuiness was no better & no worse than many of the supposedly 'great' English heroes - he was fighting for the freedom & reasonable welfare of his people that was constructively denied them by their so-called democratic governments in Belfast & London. For that many admire him & also admire him for breaking away from what he considered necessary violence when the time was suitable.

[Alan Medic]

Great post Lordship. Puts a lot into context which has mostly been missing in this thread.

[steveo]

Here we go again

None of which justifies car bombs

[Alan Medic]

Who said they were justified?

[Earl Aelfheah]

That's a mainly accurate account Lordship, but it overstates one point.. that McGuiness used 'necessary violence' - I think often the IRA used quite unnecessary levels of violence against the civilian populations and their own people.

Your key point that he was 'no better & no worse' than many of those involved in violence on the part of the Unionists or in genocide on the part of the British Empire is hardly a ringing endorsement.

The truth is that the Troubles were a shameful episode in our history. It's been suggested that I believe in forgetting or ignoring our history. Obviously I don't think this, but I do think that as those who were responsible for the worst of the atrocities (which includes members of the British government at the time) pass, it is a good opportunity to move on / find some closure, in the sense that there is little point in recriminations against those who weren't directly involved.

As I previously said, I think people like McGuiness were part of the problem and then they stopped being part of the problem. I don't think they should be lionised, just as I wouldn't suggest that we praise the British Government for their role in Northern Ireland. I think we should all be pleased that common sense and decency finally prevailed and rue the fact that it didn't happen sooner.

I don't underestimate the context in which the violence occurred, but when it comes to making an assessment of the man and his character, you cannot ignore the fact that even after the peace, he refused to express regret for his part in the violence. He offered no olive branch to the families of his victims.

[Earl Aelfheah]

I think ultimately (and similar to a lot of 'political' threads here), people wrongly see it as a zero sum game. It's not the case that if you criticise the IRA then you're ignoring, or excusing Unionist violence, or the violence of the British state. it is quite possible to think that there were terrible things done on all sides and that it's a generally shameful period in our history. It's also possible to have sympathy with the cause, without agreeing with the means.

[Lordship 516]

steveo Wrote:

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> Here we go again

>

> None of which justifies car bombs

Unfortunately history tells us that the car bomb was devised & deployed first by the Loyalist side, provided with the necessary materials from British Army supplies...

4 December 1971 - McGurk's Bar bombing - 15 civilians were killed and 17 injured by a Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF) bomb attack on a Catholic bar in Belfast.

...and you are right - none of the car bombs were justified. Its over now & hopefully won't come back. McGuinness helped to put all that behind us.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

"do think that as those who were responsible for the worst of the atrocities (which includes members of the British government at the time) pass, it is a good opportunity to move on / find some closure, in the sense that there is little point in recriminations against those who weren't directly involved"

The individuals might be dead or alive. The state they served exists still and often continues to act in the same way.

[Lordship 516]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> That's a mainly accurate account Lordship, but it

> overstates one point.. that McGuiness used

> 'necessary violence' - I think often the IRA used

> quite unnecessary levels of violence against the

> civilian populations and their own people.

If you care to read what I wrote you will see I actually wrote carefully & deliberately...

"what he considered necessary violence" - as he was quoted to have said on a number of occasions.

On your point of expressing regret for victims...it took over 200 years for the British Government to express regret for their shameful behaviour in regard to the Great Famine...and over 40 years to apologize for the murders by the brave 1st Para on Bloody Sunday 1972...

It takes time to heal. Just let's be happy the violence has diminished and we can be neighbours at peace.