calling all cyclists using the Elephant and Castle

[Earl Aelfheah]

The Elephant generally, seems to flow better since they closed one side of the roundabout.

[rendelharris]

(ETA reply to Bobbsy) Fair enough. I'm sure there are tweaks to phasing and layout that will need to be made over the years. All I can say is from my point of view as a London cyclist and motorcyclist for more than thirty years it was one of the very few junctions in London which actually worried me to the extent that I would ride out of my way to avoid it, whereas now I find it a pleasure.

Just a suggestion but if I wanted to go to Borough I'd follow the cycle lane round, left up St.George's and immediate right onto CS7 and a nice quiet route, rather than mix it all the way down Borough High Street. But each to their own!

[bobbsy]

Yeap, that's a good route, but hundreds of cyclists each morning either don't know it, or don't like it.

[Sally Eva]

Very good quiet routes seem to languish unknown. I don't know what to do about that. The best route around the Surrey Canal Path closure is via Colegrove Road and Glengall Road but as far as I can see no one is taking it.

A few people are going up Sumner Road which is a decent alternative although with tricky bits

[rendelharris]

Sally Eva Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Very good quiet routes seem to languish unknown. I

> don't know what to do about that. The best route

> around the Surrey Canal Path closure is via

> Colegrove Road and Glengall Road but as far as I

> can see no one is taking it.

Somewhere in the USA, can't recall where (somewhere near a seafront), I've seen a signpost for cycle routes with two arms, one said "Fast and dangerous" and the other "Safe and pleasant" - everyone was choosing the latter!

[Nigello]

I don't cycle (too scared) but I walk a lot and do not have a car. I pass the E and C area daily and think it is much better than before.

As a pedestrian it is easier to cross but cyclists *sometimes* disregard the reds and also - bizarrely - choose to ride on pavements and avoid the lane that wends its way past the church and towards W'minster Bridge. Bad design or just tossers?

[rendelharris]

As a mad keen cyclist it pains me to say - tossers.

Apart from one half mile stretch (which you could always push) it's now possible to ride from Peckham Library to Blackfriars, Tower Bridge, Canary Wharf and Parliament Square without ever sharing the road with motorised vehicles, if you ever fancy it!

[Sally Eva]

Nigello, if there are particularly difficult bits of the new E&C for pedestrians, please let me know. Cyclist/pedestrian conflict (however caused) is something we are concerned about (and warned about for that matter but that's history).

So let us know

[malumbu]

There are lots of the E&C layout that allows shared use of pavements - makes some interesting cut-throughs or ways to bypass red lights. Not illegal but preferable to have signalling that allows smoother flows. Having had my moans I am sure that it is better for pedestrians to navigate and I expect that the layout has reduced congestion from and into the Walworth Road (not that I use this).

I'll get back with further thoughts, meanwhile here's a blog from Sunstrans on their views on congestion, sharing road space and the impact of cycling. Came across a little idealistic to me

http://www.sustrans.org.uk/blog/cycling-cities?utm_source=Sustrans&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=8085080_The%20Network%20Mar%202017&utm_content=Will%20blog%20footer&dm_i=6EB,4TAHK,A1PZC8,I59MA,1

[katanita]

Are you including the new lights and layout at St George's Circus in this? There are several things that don't seem to work very well about these now. Most annoying is the fact that you can have a green light to head up to Waterloo Rd from London Rd, but can't get to it because for half the time it's green, the light about 30m in front of it is red. The phasing makes no sense. Also, when you are waiting in the cyclist box to go to Waterloo Road, the traffic lights are partially obscured by poles in front of them. It's not the end of the world but it does seem stupid.

The actual road layout seems problematic to me, I'm not sure if it's narrower, or whether the lanes are still confusing or what, I can't quite put my finger on it. But it seems like they've designed it for cyclists using the new CS to Blackfriars but not really thought about anyone else.

[malumbu]

Agree with all of this.

On the positive side I am now starting to do a separate dogs leg from Lameth Road at the Imperial War museum going South up the dual cycle lane. Whilst I am not a fan of going North on this the synchronisation of lights is great going the other way, and you avoid the dreadful, dreadful, funneling of traffic going left just by the Bakerloo Line tube entrance and the conflict as cars turn left just after the bus lane. That is probably not explained well!

[Sally Eva]

Katanita wrote "But it seems like they've designed it for cyclists using the new CS to Blackfriars but not really thought about anyone else".

I think this happens a lot. Traffic planners consider cyclists going in one direction (north maybe) and forget that they will want to come back (ie go south). or they think in terms of routes -- going to Blackfriars Bridge -- but not in terms of turning off east to go to Guys Hospital.

[rendelharris]

Guys is easy - go up the Blackfriars superhighway, turn right onto Quietway One at Webber Street, follow that to Tabard Gardens, Pilgrimage Street, cross Long Lane and turn up Kipling Street (no entry except for cycles) and that brings one to the back of Guys.

I agree though, coming south options suddenly run out round Elephant, there's a choice of going down the NKR or Walworth Road before one can join a quiet route again. A better cycle path on the NKR between Elephant and Rodney Place would help there. Alternatively Southwark could have made the developers of Elephant Park run a cycle path across to Rodney Road, but probably a bit late for that now (and they let them get away with murder in other respects so presumably would have done in that as well, unless there is one I haven't heard of).

[malumbu]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Not to argue malumbu, but because you obviously

> know your onions, what's your objection to a NKR

> cycle lane? I personally am more than happy with

> the excellent well surfaced bus lane there at

> present, but I can see why nervous/slow riders

> might benefit from an improvement to the pavement

> track currently in place.

Sorry I've slipped up in not getting back earlier.

I've also noted that I gave my longest ever posting on this thread without people insinuating that I was a tosser. Genuine thanks!

So - this is all very relevant and I attending an interestng conference on Friday with some of the transport movers and shakers in London, and yesterday observed bikeability training. I've never had any cycle training, but yesterday reflected on the value from some hard core motorbike training in the early 80s (this should have been built on - big mistakes made then with regards to changing the motorbike test rather than prompting some excellent voluntary schemes).

Back to the subject

(a) much better if you move cyclists to quiet routes rather than sharing trunk roads

(b) where we do share busy roads, schemes that increase congestion don't benefit anyone and can increase conflict

© if we are to use main roads, then we have do have interventions that make it so damn inconvenient for private motorists that many will shift modes, or perhaps start sharing their journeys

(d) Our whole urban traffic management is poo and we need to look to other nations, in particular Denmark, who design things better.

The latter was observing the right turn from the embankment, onto Vauxhall Bridge, yesterday, and how awful this is for cyclists. The Danish system is far more efficient for all road users.

The above is not suggesting I have a monopoly on wisdom, rather these are my views on debating with others, reading on sites such as this, and personal reflections.

[rendelharris]

I suppose it depends what the aim is: if the aim is totally segregated cycle routes then they're pretty much going to have to go on trunk routes as they're the only place with space for them. I personally think where they've been put in they work very well, though certain motorists on here and elsewhere have made it quite clear they don't agree.

I've yet to see, and maybe you could point me in the direction of, any authoritative study which has proved that the segregated lanes have worsened congestion. Empirically (though subjectively) I've found that some of the remodelling, particularly at E&C, has improved the traffic flow considerably - similarly on the rare occasions I've come through the Vauxhall gyratory in a car it seems less congested than before. I know that in the last couple of years traffic speeds have dropped, and the anti-cycle-lane brigade (not you) obviously only point the finger in one direction, but from what I've read the massive increase in building works in London, with the rise in HGVs as well as contraflows, closed streets etc, plus the growing trend to have Amazon et al deliver to one's office rather than one's home, are making a huge contribution to the slowdown.

What's the problem with the right turn onto Vauxhall Bridge? Coming along the Albert Embankment one can either stay left outside Metropolis, leave the road at the lights and cross on the cycle lane with the lights, or alternatively if it's clear get right and ride onto the traffic island cycle path from there. Either option's a good deal better than previously, where the only options were to get off and walk across two sets of lights or go all the way round the four lane snarling madness of the Vauxhall gyratory.

[malumbu]

This is becoming a two-man thread Mr H. Describe your cycling gear and bike so I can give you a cheery wave. I make most of what I say up, but as I am so good at observing and sucking in info I am generally right. Very kind of you not to berate me.

So...... from my take traffic now backs up much further from the E&C up to Bricklayers Arms. I found the original design with one set of lights on the roundabout fine, and you could then go straight through down towards the war museum. I expect that the new design equals out flow with the traffic coming from Camberwell direction. Yet the stats on the old design show it was exceptionally dangerous. So what do I know?

TfL in answering an FOI request considered Cycle Super Highways to be neutral in terms of emissions and air quality, ie some reduction in traffic was offset by some increased congestion.

But patronage has slipped slightly, possible due to increased congestion (there is a watershed in terms of extra journey time by bus where some may say sod it I'll use my car.

And as for the right turn into Vaux Bridge, I'd just move to the right, into the ASL and turn as usual. The bike trainers pointed out the weaknesses in the design including less confident cyclists and also that the Danish system means less overall dwell time for vehicles. The most tempting red light to jump in the morning is the bottom of Rye Lane, as you sit there for a minute with hardly a pedestrian or other road user in sight. That is not good planning.

[rendelharris]

Black Btwin Triban 7 road bike or a black Btwin flatbar, usually wearing an "I pay road tax" jersey and shouting at cyclists who jump reds, do say hi!

Maybe you're right about the traffic from the Bricklayers, I lived in Camberwell until sixteen months ago so used to go straight up the Walworth Road, traffic there seems to have definitely eased so your point about evening out makes sense. I must say for me, a fairly experienced and keen rider who has no problem riding positively/aggressively Elephant used to be one of the only places in London by which I felt intimidated, perhaps because I had a number of close run things there and saw a couple of nasty accidents.

Interesting stat about the balance between traffic reduction and congestion, hopefully as people get more and more used to the concept of being able to ride to work without risking one's life the scales will start to tip. I do think something needs to be done about the "sod it I'll take the car" brigade - a lot of people would hate it, and me for suggesting it, but I wouldn't object to the congestion charge zone coming down to Elephant.

See your point about Vauxhall for the inexperienced, but it's still a lot better than having to circle the Vauxhall gyratory!

Yes the light at the bottom of Rye Lane - you mean the one at the bottom of the one way stretch, yes? - has the most absurd hold, I ride down Bellenden Road specifically to avoid it!