2 Friends left NHS

[stringvest]

1 a nurse, 1 a midwife. Midwife was fed up with the old people always being blamed for bed-blocking, as it was a regular and expected occurrence in the maternity dept. Pregnant person from somewhere in the world appears, gives birth and then will not leave, as nowhere to go. Child a citizen and needs looking after so social services involved. One took up a bed for over 3 weeks refusing "temporary accommodation" wanting a decorated flat with two bedrooms and new carpets.

Nurse went to doctors to book appointment, couldn't get seen for over 2 weeks, as no "booked in advance appointments". Meanwhile couple from somewhere in the world, were being booked for a block of SIX appointments, so the language difficulties can be dealt with together with online/or telephone translator.

Nurse was already fed up and overworked. Helping in cornea transplants, someone turned up a day late missing both the translator booked and the cornea available, they turned up next day but had a breakfast so couldn't be sedated, not understanding they shouldn't have eaten. Luckily other people were phoned and turned up urgently for their corneas, so they were not wasted. It costs ?700 just to get a cornea from a body to the site where needed, thats without surgeons, theatre staff and all else involved in op.

[Nigello]

Ha! Not into the quiet life, are you stringy.......?

5, 4, 3, 2, 1....!

[uncleglen]

OMG- anchor babies......

[Earl Aelfheah]

'Anchor babies'?*

*[EDITED TO ADD] ...just googled this term. I had never heard it before, but seems to be from the US, specifically related to American citizenship and not what is being talked about on this thread https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/aug/21/anchor-babies-2016-election-immigration

[TheCat]

This may perhaps be the stupidest thing I've ever written....but I wonder it its at all possible to have a 'reasoned' discussion about these issues?

Lets try these ground rules....If I make a statement in support of an immigrant, I am not a 'liberal elite'; and if I make a statement criticizing an immigrant, I am not a 'bigot'.

SO...Assuming the two above examples are true, can we not agree that 1) its not ALL immigrants that act this way, only a select few, but also that 2) there are clearly some problems with the system which allow for SOME immigrants to take the Michael, and this needs to be addressed?

[Earl Aelfheah]

It's hard to disagree TheCat. I suspect (if those accounts are true) that they're pretty atypical - but maybe I'm wrong. Would be interesting to hear the experiences of others actually working in the NHS themselves who frequent the forum.

[Jeremy]

So only immigrants are guilty of "bed-blocking"?

[Earl Aelfheah]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> So only immigrants are guilty of "bed-blocking"?

Clearly not. It would be good to hear an account of what the real problems are in the NHS, from someone with first hand experience of working there.

My guess would be that that lack of funding is the biggest challenge right now. We spend considerably less as a percentage of GDP than the European average and with big cuts to social care, it's not at all surprising that people are getting stuck in hospital.

[Jeremy]

Quite - funding is the main issue.

I'm not going to pretend that abusers and timewasters don't exist (from all walks of life) but it ain't the only issue...

[red devil]

And let's not forget that the team of doctors and nurses that dealt with these cases probably consisted of a number of immigrants, especially if it was at a London hospital...

[Otta]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> This may perhaps be the stupidest thing I've ever

> written....but I wonder it its at all possible to

> have a 'reasoned' discussion about these issues?

>

> Lets try these ground rules....If I make a

> statement in support of an immigrant, I am not a

> 'liberal elite'; and if I make a statement

> criticizing an immigrant, I am not a 'bigot'.

>

> SO...Assuming the two above examples are true, can

> we not agree that 1) its not ALL immigrants that

> act this way, only a select few, but also that 2)

> there are clearly some problems with the system

> which allow for SOME immigrants to take the

> Michael, and this needs to be addressed?

Good post.

I've worked in social care / education for years. It is true that there are SOME immigrant that take the p!ss, and want as much as they can get their hands on, and couldn't give a shit that other people don't get the same. And there are ways in which services could be better protected against this kind of cynicism.

But in my experience, they are a tiny tiny minority. Just like the tiny minority of white British people that play the system and get big houses and more money in benefits than a lot of working families get. It's these cases that stand out, exactly because they are so outrageous. It is not the norm, never has been, and never will be.

But what has always been the norm, and always will be, is people using these exceptional cases to suggest that everyone on benefits is like that, or (more and more commonly), that all immigrants are like that.

I'm sure stringvest also believes that the strains on social care are all down to immigrants too.

[Borky]

For how long has the EDF had an infestation of bigotry?

[KidKruger]

How long has the general population had an infestation of bigotry ?

[Jeremy]

Borky Wrote:

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> For how long has the EDF had an infestation of bigotry?

There's always been one or two at any point in time.

[stringvest]

"I'm sure stringvest also believes that the strains on social care are all down to immigrants too."

NOT AT ALL - Im not a racist bigot for mentioning the above problems exist, it creates a further strain on an already strained system, "anchor babies" etc.

If it wasn't for "immigrants" working in the NHS and social care, visiting the elderly in their homes or in care, who would do the job? That being said, just because they are doing theses jobs, it's not to some wonderful standard all the time, some are wonderful, some diabolical!

My mother was elderly and terminally ill at home being cared for by myself (to the point of exhaustion) with the help of visiting "carers" most of whom were immigrants. A lot of the time, there were communication difficulties. Mum couldn't understand what was being said to her in strong accents (that's not a racist statement, its just a fact). I was told to leave it to the "carers" for the sake of my own health. BUT I COULDN'T, I STILL HAD TO GO 7 DAYS A WEEK, despite having a max care package of 4 visits a day. Mum could be found in her own mess in the mornings, no meds given, food in a dirty CAT BOWL, no basic housework done, not washed or changed even, no milk for a cup of tea. She was constantly intruded upon. They put down they've been there 45 mins, when they had been for FIVE. One afternoon I arrived to find four carers arguing over shifts in the kitchen, and one who had come to "have a look at my mothers nice things" while mum sat in her wet nightie, crying and not knowing what to do. I complained several times to the provider and social services. She died.

Dad was taken into care with severe Alzheimers, the home was very bad. It was dirty, the food was slops, he lost two stones and was admitted to hospital dangerously dehydrated with worryingly low blood pressure, when he returned to the home I asked how much he weighed and no-one could say? his weight loss had been going on for two months and he wasn't due to be weighed for FOUR WEEKS (even with weight issues)? I constantly phoned to enquire, but due to "language barriers" had to visit to speak to someone in person. Even then the nurse said he went to hospital for a HEAD ITCH?? And his room had been stripped of belongings due to A HEAD ITCH, not because they had been treating him with someones else's laxatives and starved him, because the nurse hadn't understood instructions, and hadn't recognised noro-virus (she was replaced shortly after). I moved dad urgently.

Good news, Dad now being cared for by "international staff" at a different place, they are all very kind and do a very good in difficult circumstances, I am very grateful and made new friends.

[Mick Mac]

red devil Wrote:

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> And let's not forget that the team of doctors and

> nurses that dealt with these cases probably

> consisted of a number of immigrants, especially if

> it was at a London hospital...

So, doctors and nurses paid for by the British taxpayer, to look after an increasing number of immigrant patients?

[red devil]

What do you mean by 'paid for'?...

[Mick Mac]

red devil Wrote:

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> What do you mean by 'paid for'?...

eh? Salaries - Doctors and nurses are a cost of the NHS, met by UK taxpayers??

Also, if we are servicing the needs of people from all over (if the OP is correct) then we have obviously needed to attract additional staff (from within and without the UK) to deal with the growing number of patients?

It's a snowball.

[red devil]

'Paid by' suggests salaries, 'paid for by' suggests more e.g education etc.

Anyways, why say 'UK taxpayers', do you not think immigrants pay tax?...

[JoeLeg]

The increase in the use of NHS services is far more to do with a population that lives longer and people who cannot/will not access more appropriate services, than any increase in immigration. The fact is first-world healthcare to the standard we all expect it is incredibly expensive and people don't like dying. The modern NHS is criminally underfunded, and I would say the tragic circumstances surrounding Stringvest's examples are far more a result of bad management and lack of money than anything else.

As Stringvest points out, large numbers of jobs in social and medical care are done by immigrants too, but she describes an all too familiar situation of staff that are badly supervised and controlled. These are problems that can only be addressed by real, systemic changes to an organisation that everyone wants, but hardly anyone is willing to admit the real cost of.

[nxjen]

"Anyways, why say 'UK taxpayers', do you not think immigrants pay tax?..."

UK taxpayers includes immigrants

[Mick Mac]

nxjen Wrote:

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> "Anyways, why say 'UK taxpayers', do you not think

> immigrants pay tax?..."

>

> UK taxpayers includes immigrants

Indeed. I didn't say otherwise.

[nxjen]

"The increase in the use of NHS services is far more to do with a population that lives longer and people who cannot/will not access more appropriate services, than any increase in immigration."

What I haven't seen discussed anywhere is that ever evolving medical research is continuously making new discoveries in terms of treatment and drugs which increases costs to the NHS to treat previously untreatable conditions. I have no idea what the solution might be.

[JoeLeg]

That's exactly the point I'm making; first-world medicine costs more and more all the time.

Look at immunotherapy, described by the late AA Gill as "every oncologists weapon of choice...but only if you can afford it". It will extend your life, but it costs a lot, and isn't (as far as I'm aware) available on the NHS, which can't afford it.

More and more in the west we view medicine as some kind of all-conquering thing which can always help us. But no one wants to know how much it is. What's the answer? More money. As so often in life the answer is more money.

[????]

nxjen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "The increase in the use of NHS services is far

> more to do with a population that lives longer and

> people who cannot/will not access more appropriate

> services, than any increase in immigration."

>

> What I haven't seen discussed anywhere is that

> ever evolving medical research is continuously

> making new discoveries in terms of treatment and

> drugs which increases costs to the NHS to treat

> previously untreatable conditions. I have no idea

> what the solution might be.

Theoretically loads:

New Treatments that are more cost effective

Technology that delivers services/treatments more effectively - from profound changes in say laser surgery technique to simple appointment/reminders setting delivered better but basically technology can reduce cost in myriad ways

Better management all round to improve efficiency

Better procurement practice

Better non=-medical 'practice' eg, I read that the recent change to giving people with fluey type symptons anti-biotic perscriptions but framing this as "This is in case you don't feel better in 2 days then get the subscription' has had a material impact on subscription costs

Further Devolving of some 'medical' powers and applications down the chain (see Jabs via qualified Nurses as an eg of standard practice now - used to just be doctors)

Self- monitoring via technology/apps - is already but could be massive in reducing GP pressure and/or 'preventetive' practice

These are just off the top of my head in 5 mins