Bring back polytechnics

[womanofdulwich]

If we went back to polytechnics, as well as universtities, wouldn't the course fees there be much cheaper, leading to much more vocational courses with skills that employers want and jobs for graduates? They would not be carrying the academic research that the older universities do. I can't see that the course fees would be anything like ?9k. Hasn't the education for educations sake gone too far? Just a thought. What do others think?

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Sounds good to me.

[Townleygreen]

You have a point PGC.

Thing is though, I'm not sure vocational courses are cheaper to run.

Obviously there'd be savings in not having to do research.

[peterstorm1985]

I'm not really sure why it would be any cheaper. When the polytechnics became universities they didn't suddenly start doing masses of academic research as far as I know (I stand to be corrected).

Some academic research is funded by the private sector (or charitable external funding) so it can actually bring in money rather than the other way round.

[Twirly]

So far as I can recall Polys did do research. I did my degree at City Poly as it then was, and my psychology lecturer was certainly involved in research. Though maybe they didn't do as much as at a traditional university. However, degrees were seen as second class to the traditional university, which was why the sectors were merged. I suspect that they were also seen as second class in terms of employment for academics, a lot of whom do actually want to do research (if all they wanted to do was teach, maybe they'd be in a school or 6th form college). And not all the courses were vocational either - the majority at City were academic. There was a furniture design department (a whole college that had become part of City) which could be described as vocational, but I believe they still did degrees.

In terms of funding, research is (or was - have not worked in the sector for a while) funded separately from undergraduate tuition, so I don't think this would have a significant impact on costs.

It may also depend on what you actually mean by vocational courses, and the level of such qualifications too. But I'd have expected a further education college would be much more suitable for this expansion, which I believe we've needed for many years, particularly as degrees are now less valuable than they were 20+ years ago. The value of a degree is relative to its ubiquity.

What might be more useful is an assessment of what skills society requires, and then look at how best the education system can provide them. How many graduates are needed in English literature, media studies, geography, biological sciences, physics etc. versus our need for plumbers, electricians, nurses, dental hygienists etc. There is the value of learning for the love of knowledge, but going to university has probably just become the thing to do at a certain stage in your life, not necessarily because you have a thirst for knowledge of French or English lit. I can?t say that I?ve ever used knowledge acquired in my degree in my working life (though having done psychology, I?ve certainly applied it in my personal life, and loved studying the subject). Had I known what I wanted to do at 18 or so, then a vocational course might well have been better value for money.

[womanofdulwich]

My personal experience was that I knew I wanted to be a surveyor, and my degree was specialised to exempt me from the professional exams, as it was monitored by the professional body. most students on my course became surveyors when they graduated.same for those in hotel and catering-and civil/structural engineering, planning and housing- we all did sandwich courses- the degree was a means to an end.

Not sure about those that did english lit etc- whether polys even ran those types of courses? i just wonder if making polytechnics into universities was such a good idea- when originally they were mainly vocational courses,not just a way of keeping people out of unemployment for 3-4 years. all our courses were 20-40 timetabled hours a week. have i got rose tinted glasses?

[peterstorm1985]

womanofdulwich, it would be interesting to know which polytechnic you attended as yours may have been one that was purely vocational and that may be why you see such a difference. I attended a university (that gained its charter in the 1960s) and there were academic courses, some with as little as 5 hours teaching per week, and the only costs involved were the lecturers for those few hours and books in the library. But there were also vocational courses with timetabled hours up to 35 hours per week. It was very clear that the cost of running the vocational degrees was much higher. As well as the extended teaching hours there were also the additional costs of buildings for laboratories and equipment required, e.g. engineering, science. However, there was a lot of technical research being carried out for corporations using those same buildings/equipment and I understood that that pumped money back into the system. When I applied to university I did consider certain polytechnics that had a reputation for equivalence with universities from an employer's perspective - these included Hatfield, City and Portsmouth - and the course content was not significantly different other than being slightly narrower and a little more focused on specific areas of industry. I also remember friends studying drama and English Lit at polytechnics so I don't think this is such a simple comparison.

[Loz]

Comment in the Gruniad the other day...

Thatcher turned all the polys into universities... then Blair turned all the universities into polytechnics!

[Tarot]

Woolwich poly was good, lots of my mates went there.

[womanofdulwich]

I went to Sheffield Poly.

[Pugwash]

I did started my degree course at South Bank Poly and then transfered over to East London Poly. By the time I completed my degree both had become universities. I had a friend who did a degree in Politics at Portsmouth Poly but did his MA Politics at a London Uni.

From what I recall - there were in the 60s/70s/80s and some of the 90s, three levels of post 16 education - FE Colleges which offered vocational, BTEC,NVQ, GCSE and A level courses. The pOlys offered degrees courses and Higher National Diploms and limited vocational courses (SouthBank Poly had diplomas in sugar craft and bakery)and then there were the Unis. I would say a degree course whether taken at a Poly or a Uni would cost the same.

[Ruffler]

Hey Twirly, I studied psychology at City Poly in the early 80s. When were you there?

[koteczek]

Totally agree. I also think that young people should be able to learn vocational skills at a younger age - maybe 14. If they were doing something that they really enjoyed at school (e.g. fixing motorbikes, learning how to build houses) they might also put a lot more energy into maths and literacy ....