Students - rioting

[Jeremy]

I don't agree, actually. Everybody gets a secondary school education for free, which to be honest is probably enough for a lot of jobs. Not all careers need a university education... too many kids are being sent to uni, and too many kids are living away from home for 3 years. The old model of free university tuition only works when the numbers are lower.

The idea that it's some sort of conspiracy with the evil banks at it's root (surprise surprise) doesn't really add up, does it?

Edited to clarify... I totally agree that University education should be free, I just don't agree with the rest of it.

[Brendan]

It?s not an ?evil conspiracy? although the outcomes are arguably evil. It is a well publicised and celebrated ideological standpoint on moving away from public accountability and control to corporatism and small government.

Just last week I once again listened to it being enthusiastically lauded by an ex tory shadow minister over a luncheon table. Not that he minds the fact that the salary for his new job is paid by the tax payer.

Their argument being that the powers of the ?free market? will give the public the best deal*. Only when it comes to people making the choice on their education it is not a ?free market? it is a cornered market. This is why most sensible people realise you can?t have the private sector involved if you have any compulsion to provide a free, equal system.

Why so defensive of ?the banks??

*Or the shareholders the highest profit.

[reggie]

I think the detail of the changes mean that 'working class' students will be more protected while the rest of us get hit. Correct me if I'm wrong.

It's hard to attack the idea that those who benefit from education should pay pay for that education. Also it's fair to say that the price of education isnt going up with these cuts its who pays that has changed.

This is all part of the squeeze innit?

VIVA THE NUANCED REVOLUTION COMRADES

[Brendan]

reggie Wrote:

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> It's hard to attack the idea that those who

> benefit from education should pay for that

> education.

No it isn?t. In fact I will go so far as to say that statement is utter, self-absorbed bullshit.

We should pay from education so that the next generation can benefit from it and benefit from a world where education is free. .

Or is the idea that we should leave the world a better place than we found it no longer valid?

[MrBen]

Jeremy Wrote:

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>... too many kids are being sent to uni, and too many kids

> are living away from home for 3 years. The old

> model of free university tuition only works when

> the numbers are lower.

I agree. There's a huge percentage of so called "drinking degrees" which are never put to any meaningful use (by most who attend them) in real life...philosophy...classics....film and media. My environmental sciences degree was fun, as were the girls and ?1 pints in the union bar. I didn't qualify for a grant - rightly because my parents earned over about 40K at the time. Then I spent my student loan on a Music Man amp and Gibson 335 as I figured it was the lowest interest loan I'd ever get. Wrong on all counts really. And there were and are many thousands like me. It's like welfare benefits - a clumsy, poorly targeted benefits system fails those who genuinely need it whilst it's exploited by those who don't.

[Brendan]

The semi-hollow body? Do you still have it?

[MrBen]

Alas no....I had to sell it when I hit hard times. It had a blonde finish too.....like Freddie Kings.

[MrBen]

Hard times = graduating and getting a real job that did not involve fluvial hydrology

[Atticus]

Riots in the pst have served a purpose. Untold money was thrown into the regeneration of Toxteth following the riots in the 80s.

The problem with yesterday's riots and others of late are that they get hijacked by 'rent a mob anarchists' (aplogies I really am not a Daily Mail reader) who don't nec give a flying fig about the initial issue. They'd riot about the increase in price of stamps if given a suitable platform.

As discussed earlier in this thread, the agenda as far as the media concerned becomes the violence as opposed to the cuts, which defeats the object of the demo.

[MrBen]

Demonstration has no effect? This was the beginning of the end for Thatcher.

[Brendan]

I was actually on the streets of Westminster yesterday afternoon and saw quite a lot of the protests. To describe them as ?riots? isn?t even nearly correct. The only riotous behaviour seems to have been by a group of about 6 black clad folk who smashed a window, got their picture on all the front pages this morning and look suspiciously like the same people who smashed up the bank during the G20 protests.

[Jeremy]

Brendan Wrote:

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> Why so defensive of ?the banks??

Partly because of the stuff about "giving the financial sector more power" and banks "putting guns to people?s heads". It's disingenuous, the banking system didn't decide to increase tuition fees.

And partly because the student loans company is a public sector organisation. They are not bank loans.

And partly because the portrayal of the finance industry as public enemy no.1 is getting rather tiresome and predictable. Especially when it is supported by distorted facts.

[Emerson Crane]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> Brendan Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Why so defensive of ?the banks??

>

> Partly because of the stuff about "giving the

> financial sector more power" and banks "putting

> guns to people?s heads". It's disingenuous, the

> banking system didn't decide to increase tuition

> fees.

>

> And partly because the student loans company is a

> public sector organisation. They are not bank

> loans.

>

> And partly because the portrayal of the finance

> industry as public enemy no.1 is getting rather

> tiresome and predictable. Especially when it is

> supported by distorted facts.

May I ask if you are a financier or a banker by any chance?

[Jeremy]

Not as such, no. Tell me which bit you disagree with.

[Brendan]

Distortions of the facts are what they are. Mine do not now and never will make my assertions less correct.

I can understand however that a criticism alluded to while making another point on a similar mater may make an adherent defensive.

The fact that there is a cohesive voice singing the same lines from the same propaganda sheet defending the continued increased power and decreased accountability of an industry that has so intrinsically insinuated itself into every aspect of life does not allay suspicions.

[Emerson Crane]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> Not as such, no. Tell me which bit you disagree

> with.

Its not that I disagree as such, but I have a distinct dislike of financiers and bankers for my own personal reasons, and you seem to very very protective and vocal in your rebuffs of shots at financial institutions and banks. So if you're "not as such" I'm guessing that there is connection but you prefer not to state what it is.

[reggie]

Brendan Wrote:

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> We should pay from education so that the next

> generation can benefit from it and benefit from a

> world where education is free. .

>

> Or is the idea that we should leave the world a

> better place than we found it no longer valid?

How do people who dont go to university benefit from people who do?

I agree that education should be free but who pays for it?

I do think we should try hard to leave the world a better place than we find it...yes yes yes.

[Jeremy]

Emerson, I'm employed by a bank, but I'm not a banker. There's no mystery there.

I just find the misinformed - and sometimes plain incorrect - hyperbole frustrating. By all means criticise away, but make sure your criticisms are based on fact. In which case, I will probably join you in your criticism.

[reggie]

respec

[SeanMacGabhann]

As someone who works for a bank I find it hard to reconcile the people around me moaning about their not-insignificant salaries, their forthcoming bonuses (?it?s in my contract!?) getting taxed and how they too would leave the country AND at the same time listen to these people pontificate on the latest headlines

Firefighters? Fack em, get someone else to do their jobs. Tough times lads we all need to cut back. It?s only a contract. Get rewritten all the time mate!

Students? Bunch of freeloaders

Tube workers? D?you know how much these guys get paid?? I wouldn?t mind but everytime I go to a ticket office there?s always a queue!! (well duh!)

Etc etc

And these are the regular joe?s, not the ones paid obscene amounts ? but all of them working for companies that played a major part in the current financial crisis. No humility, no context, no thought ? just me, me, me. Ditto when people complain about jobs being outsourced or offshored ? ?bottom line mate? ? but you should hear them when it?s their own job affected. The lack of comprehension is astonishing

Now other people who work at banks will say I?m stereotyping, and their colleagues aren?t like that, but I wouldn?t be so sure if you pushed them a bit

[Brendan]

Right now I am benefiting from the fact that an entire host of people went to university. From the architect who designed the building I?m in to the engineers who designed our sewage systems.

But perhaps you have a point as, alas I am finding it difficult to see how anyone is currently benefiting, or has ever benefited from the fact that I went to university.

[Emerson Crane]

86-year Old Lady's Letter to Bank

Shown below, is an actual letter that was sent to a bank by an 86 year old

woman.

The bank manager thought it amusing enough to have it published in the New

York Times.

Dear Sir:

I am writing to thank you for bouncing my check with which I endeavored to

pay my plumber last month. By my calculations, three nanoseconds must

have elapsed between his presenting the check and the arrival in my

account of the funds needed to honor it..

I refer, of course, to the automatic monthly deposit of my entire pension,

an arrangement which, I admit, has been in place for only eight years.

You are to be commended for seizing that brief window of opportunity, and

also for debiting my account $30 by way of penalty for the inconvenience

caused to your bank.

My thankfulness springs from the manner in which this incident has caused

me to rethink my errant financial ways. I noticed that whereas I

personally answer your telephone calls and letters, --- when I try to

contact you, I am confronted by the impersonal, overcharging,

pre-recorded, faceless entity which your bank has become.

From now on, I, like you, choose only to deal with a flesh-and-blood person.

My mortgage and loan repayments will therefore and hereafter no longer be

automatic, but will arrive at your bank, by check, addressed personally

and confidentially to an employee at your bank whom you must nominate.

Be aware that it is an OFFENSE under the Postal Act for any other person

to open such an envelope.

Please find attached an Application Contact which I require your chosen

employee to complete.

I am sorry it runs to eight pages, but in order that I know as much about

him or her as your bank knows about me, there is no alternative.

Please note that all copies of his or her medical history must be

countersigned by a Notary Public, and the mandatory details of his/her

financial situation (income, debts, assets and liabilities) must be

accompanied by documented proof.

In due course, at MY convenience, I will issue your employee with a PIN

number which he/she must quote in dealings with me.

I regret that it cannot be shorter than 28 digits but, again, I have

modeled it on the number of button presses required of me to access my

account balance on your phone bank service.

As they say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Let me level the playing field even further.

When you call me, press buttons as follows:

IMMEDIATELY AFTER DIALLING, PRESS THE STAR (*) BUTTON FOR ENGLISH

#1. To make an appointment to see me

#2. To query a missing payment.

#3. To transfer the call to my living room in case I am there.

#4 To transfer the call to my bedroom in case I am sleeping

#5. To transfer the call to my toilet in case I am attending to nature.

#6. To transfer the call to my mobile phone if I am not at home

#7. To leave a message on my computer, a password to access my computer is

required. Password will be communicated to you at a later date to

that Authorized Contact mentioned earlier.

#8. To return to the main menu and to listen to options 1 through 7.

#9. To make a general complaint or inquiry.

The contact will then be put on hold, pending the attention of my

automated answering service.

#10. This is a second reminder to press* for English.

While this may, on occasion, involve a lengthy wait, uplifting

music will play for the duration of the call.

Regrettably, but again following your example, I must also levy an

establishment fee to cover the setting up of this new arrangement.

May I wish you a happy, if ever so slightly less prosperous New Year?

Your Humble Client

And remember: Don't make old People mad.

We don't like being old in the first place, so it doesn't take much to piss us off.

I love this, it touches on many of the things that I abhor about banks and banking

[reggie]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> Emerson, I'm employed by a bank, but I'm not a

> banker.

I got soul but I'm not a soldier

[Brendan]

This would be funny if it didn't ring so true: http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/mortarboard/2010/nov/11/fielding-blog-ucas-statement

[flapjackdavey]

Keef Wrote:

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> I support the students, but who the hell was that

> mouthy cow on Newsnight!

Mouthy Cow ?? are you sure ?? Paxman hardly let her get a word in and when she did manage to speak he just spoke over her.