Are the Lib Dems broken.

[James Barber]

Hi DJ,

For some parts of the UK 80% of the market rate might be reasonable. I can imagine middle of wales 20% of a very deflated housing rental market beign reicidulously cheap. Equally 80% of London is increidbly high.

So hopefully the new localism ethos will allow local councils to make judgements for themselves of what's best for their community.

james.

[DJKillaQueen]

I agree with you but what I would say is that even in Wales, the increase to 80% of market value will only be applicable to new tenants between now and 2015. How will any council be able to justify to two tenants living in identical properties but paying vastly different rents. I can see real dilemas for some local authorities with this one.

[James Barber]

Last weeks council by elections:

The Lib Dems held one seat (Solihul MBC Olton) and gained one (Conwy CBC) from the tories. The tories (Kent CC Tonbridge) and Labour (Manchester MBC Baguley) each held one seat.

...still not broken..;-)

[DJKillaQueen]

Gaining one from the Tories is an interesting result. What was the turnout?

[James Barber]

LD Sue Shotter 389 (40.4%)

Con 270 (28.1%

Lab 216 (22.5%

Ind 87 (9.0%

Majority 119

Turnout 31.3%

LD gain from Con

['bout now]

Maybe not completely broken bur certainly a long term renovation project. For the time being I fear we are back to two party politics.

[James Barber]

The election systems, excepting London Assembly and European elections, mean we're rarely not in a two party system in a particular constituency.

In Southwark it's two party between Labour and Liberal Democrats.

[thomastillingthe3rd]

Sadly they have had it, Cameron even threw Clegg a bone by letting him trumpet his "fight to save the NHS" ....sadly the Conservatives had

A. Realised the plans needed re-visiting but did not want to be accused of a forestry sell off type u turn.

B. They suddenly got very fearful that the Liberals would get smashed and the coalition would collapse

C. When the polls came in they were re-thinking their 'snap election' strategy when their vote held up and Labour made little ground. The conservatives figured that to tackle the NHS now may risk that option.

Either way the pygmy political muppet that is the conservative foil, 'Nick Clegg' swallowed the bait hook line and sinker.

They are in deep deep trouble.

[DJKillaQueen]

Nick Clegg is indeed scuppered. He has a weakened position in the coalition now but cannot force a general election either because his party will be anihilated probably. We all could see this coming, but blinkered Nick, who put his own career first anyway, apparantly could not.

The best thing the Libs can do is see out the term and get rid of him before the next General Election. He may well lose his seat in Sheffield anyway.

[????]

Actually, what this shows is the deep conservatism of both the left and right. And the growing unpleasantness of the left and its media.

Nick Clegg saw a chance to break the mold in British politics and got a referendum on changing the voting system for forming a coalition. That's a major major achievement. It failed (see my first point).

Nick Clegg got the Liberals in power for the first time in nearly a century - they had to go back on some of their manifesto commitments cos hey poeple they are a minority in the coalition, but clearly a significant proportion of their voters actually didn't really want to ever be in govt (see my first point)

They have watered down many tory reforms.

They have already raised and got a coalition agreement to continue to raise the tax threshold significantly to take hard working poor workers out of income tax. a vitally needed reform to reward work.

Nick Clegg and his colleages have seen the books and completley understood how urgently (and really urgently) some sort of firm majority government was needed to avert a Sterling crisis, they've had no thanks from the screaming defeceit deniers of the left, the political opportunists in Labour (who tend to be those that also know how neccessary the cuts are and are really jolly glad they don't have to carry the can for the mess Gordon left the country in). I and anyone who cares about the future prosperity of this country should than the Liberal democrats for that.

He has been subject to a barrage of press hatred and propognada from the usual suspects. Seripously, look at all the bile and and unwillingness toi debate in British politics (including on here), mainly the lovely left.

I am voting for them in both the local and almost certainly the next election, including for him, a politician just trying to do what he thinks best and who doesn't deserve the villification and hatred poured on him.

History will judge him better than the shrieking harridans of the so called 'progressive' left.

[DJKillaQueen]

Hmmmm...equally some will laugh off the idea that any criticism is mindless propoganda from the left....

[StraferJack]

I agree with most if ???? points. Apart from his bizarre preoccupation with "the left". Certainly some mindless stuff comes from that direction but I suggest it's your preoccupation with the left that makes it stand out for you. The right are just as vile towards clegg. As for the media...2 newspapers which sell barely half a million between them compared to the millions and millions sold by telegraph and times?

I'm not knocking any of them here, just pointing out clegg is getting a raw deal from all angles, not either side especially

[????]

Yup, the point is we know the tories are nasty, just a bit of a laff pretending that the virtous progressives aren't especially when they start to lose the argument

[StraferJack]

I?m not sure aspiring to (or even pretending to) have ?progressive? values bestows superhuman abilities on anyone.

Human beings, and those involved in politics expecially, are fallible and prone to showing their unnatractive side, grubbing around in the dirt for whatever they can find (votes? Dignity?) . And lord knows there is plenty to make one blush at the moment.

But without wanting to condone or dismiss that, there is a bigger picture. Historically, both left and right have their moments in the sun ? to different levels in different countries. I?m no Labour party apologist or member ? but if we accept them as ?the left? in these arguments I would say they are in better shape than the tories were for year after year in the late 90s, early 21st century. I?m all for holding them accountable for falling short of their aspirations but sometimes it appears that even those aspirations are the target . If the Libdems had a majority at the election we would be looking at quite a different first year ? even with the cuts

Unlike you I don?t believe Labour broke the economy. I don?t think Lib Dems looked at the books and saw no choice. Cuts are needed, all agreed but whilst I agree that history may be kinder to Nick Clegg, I think history will also show just how much the current Tory leadership corrupted the public acceptance of the need for cuts to smuggle as much ideology (that concept you loathe) onto the books. I think Clegg himself will, when the split happens, have much to say about this particular aspect of the government

[????]

I'm worried about the depth and speed of the Tories cuts (and, from some of them, the ideological glee that surrounds what are painful necessities is unpleasant) but I think they are directionally necceessarily. I don't actually believe that Labour could have possibly delivered them given it's heritage and union backing and from too many of its members economic luddism, so, thankfully for all of us, we have a Coalition. It's far, far, far better than the fate of Greece, Ireland and Portugal.

As someone who has voted Labour for 80% of the elections I've voted in (including 3 times for Old Labour) they need people like me to be voting for them again.

For me that means

- accepting that the state and state spending needs reform

- stopp acting like an opposition and give us some real policies/ideology

- ditch Ed, as out of his depth as Avram Grant

I think the Labour Party and the Left in general have failed to understand or put a vision of what 21st Century Britain in a global economy needs to be like. I think the Tories have tried, even though I don't agree with all of it. Labour look the dinosaurs at the moment.

The pathetic, class driven drivel propoganda from a bunch of higlhy priveliged establishment left wingers - Harman (Lords daughter); Millibands, the middle class North London establishment left personified - including a ?1.5 million hosue in Primrose Hill left to them in trust (avoiding pesky inherithance tax - nice move Marxists daddy) ; Mandelson...all priveloged elites, drives me nuts. It's unpleasant paint them all as toffs that's the lowest common denominator spirit. Labour MPS actually have a far narrower field of backgrounds than the Tories - and hardly any proper old worker lefties left at all.

Shit the Harperson and Balls/Cooper households even have 2 MPs each which given that there are 22 Million Households in the UK strikes me as being somewhat elistis and no platform to lecture us on elitism and privelige...at least the Milliband brothers don't talk nowadays....

Hypocrites, visionless, elitist and very unrepresentative....I'd rather vote Tory at the moment....and, I actually quite like Cameron. I genuienly think he's going to send his kids to local state schools too a great meassage but also one that makes me chortle. How Abbot and Harman can even look at themselves in the mirror before going out each morning to lecture and busybody the plebs.

I still generally prefer the company of Labour voters than the tory ones, with some exceptions...shit, my missus even reads the Guardian

[thomastillingthe3rd]

What rubbish...."the liberals have seen the books so they know..." yes like they are going to just disagree! Lets be real Nick Clegg got the Big Brother vote, and know we see him for who he really is. Last night on TV as he and Cameron toured a plant somewhere in the UK, he took the opportunity to make bitchy comments towards Cameron, it was truly cringe worthy.

They have done nothing to water down any of the Tory policies, it?s a myth. As for banging Labour for all the "they have bankrupted us rubbish" its tosh. What Brown did was wrap you all up and pretty much ring fence you in a way that the Tories can not get at you without completely collapsing the economy, interest at 0%, house prices fairly consistent but yes market pretty stagnant. Lordship lane is still bustling, restaurants not collapsing, nothing whatsoever like the 80's.

As for comparisons with other Euro economies, there is not much of a comparison really; completely different economies.

Clegg is making the liberal Democrats look decidedly insidious in their quest for power. And no Clegg did not get them elected, people turned away from Labour and many steered clear of the Conservatives. What Clegg has actually managed to do is begin to make the Tories electable again. So if you voted labour in the 80's more fool you, they were not a party ready to govern, outdated policies.

As for the 'unions' they are one of the main bodies fighting for peoples working conditions, teachers, Police, health workers. You just sing the mantra of the Murdoch press without any real consideration for what you are actually saying, it?s damaging.

When Osborne tears up the TUPE legislation those who come after us and maybe you yourself will find yourself sold on to a company that is legally within its right to tell you that it wants to reduce your salary by 20% and can legally do so, and that?s just for starters.

Bloody murdoch press gets them all in the end.

[Loz]

thomastillingthe3rd Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> When Osborne tears up the TUPE legislation those

> who come after us and maybe you yourself will find

> yourself sold on to a company that is legally

> within its right to tell you that it wants to

> reduce your salary by 20% and can legally do so,

> and that?s just for starters.

Seems strange for Cameron to rip up a piece of Thatcher legislation. I know he was looking at the redundancy legislation, but that's a complete joke anyway. I've seen a number of redundancy rounds over the years and the 'consultancy period' is done for looks - nothing ever comes of it.

[????]

...and another debt denialist, how does having spend at 30% above your income not lead to bankruptcy in the long term? Please explain......Talking of mantras "Teachers, Police, healthworkers" here we go again. I'd like some facts rather than 'that's rubbish', 'they're different' etc..

[thomastillingthe3rd]

?Seems strange for Cameron to rip up a piece of Thatcher legislation?..... it does not and here is why.

Currently TUPE legislation affords protection. Cameron / Osborne want to remove these protections so as not to 'lumber' the new employer, with historical accrued Redundancy, the piffling problem of previously agreed salaries, pension rights, and basically too demolish the consultation period. The new employer can currently claim in an employment tribunal that ?I did not know they got paid extra for, nights, travel, weekends etc" and win. Currently consultation allows for staff to make sure the new employer is made aware of exactly what all the 'current working conditions are".....so it generally stops the new employer making wholesale changes and therefore savings/profit at the staffs expense. Osborne / Cameron and big business want those rights ended. They basically want all those transferring staff to effectively be dictated to on what their new conditions, contracts and payments will be going forward. Thatcher was only iron these idiots are ETON boys all the way, going further than even she would have dared.

as for ???????, the facts you make are not facts so can't be rubbished, and I was merely saying that the 'unions' as you like to call them are generally now made up of ordinary workers, lots are younger and progressive but still fighting for employment rights for everyone.... Not murdochs great slavering red eyed beast of doom!

Fighting against TUPE change to ensure that accrued wealth that we have earnt through years of working, is not then spun into profit when everyone is bloody outsourced.

We are now facing 'investment funds' funding new companies to 'mirror companies' that they already own and fighting for the same business. Why ?.....so they can in source workers from their old companies on worse conditions and make even greater profit...........its a carousel you see and you are paying to keep it going......get it yet?

Get with it ???? and stop making redtop like statements......... if you want a proper debate they dont help.

[????]

so, Public spending 30% above receipt - how does that not lead to bankruptcy? Please answer or is the 30% expenditure above income not a fact?

That was a fact.

The rest of my post was my largely opinion, although I have voted Labour 80% of the time, Balls/Cooper, Harman and her bloke, do live in the same house, there are about 22 million households in the UK the Millibands are brothers. Stuff aboaut hypocracy etc was my opinion, that's what happens on forums...as all of your posts have been opinion so plese try and understand the difference and stop being so foooking rude.

PS calling everyone who you disagree with a puppet of Murdoch is a tedious old smear

What do you want me to call the 'unions' as "I like to call them" instead of, urm, er, the Unions? Please let me know.

You're confusing insulting people with debate. If you want a debate come back with some points to argue with not rants about something I haven't even mentioned. Otherwise bore off I can do without patronsing insults from shouty people like you.

Dismissing all Liberal votes as "Big Brother" votes sounds a bit of a student insult....

[Loz]

Not sure why Cameron and Osborne's school is of interest, especially as you felt the need to put it in capital letters. Sounds like you just want to whip up a quick class war in place of decent debate.

Anyway, TUPE covers Terms and Conditions - salary is not always part of that contract and future raises in salary may just never happen. The consultation period just gives the employee the right not to transfer, in which case they will probably be made redundant. Also, pension rights are specifically excluded from TUPE.

Really, the main benefit of TUPE is service length should you be made redundant. Whoopee.

[thomastillingthe3rd]

LOZ why would make statments about TUPE when you clearly have a limited understanding. Consultation is justthat consulation on every issue, most salaries are contractual and by not transferring you are not made redundant you actually effectively resign on the grounds that the transfer is unfair and have totry your luck in a tribunal, which is generally stacked against you. as for length of service that may not be contractual if you look at your re-publushed staff hand book they printed a year before they proposed you TUPE ! so less whoopeeee and mor PAAAAAAAAAARP !

as for Eton in capitals those boys have no class except their own, dont let your imagination run away with itself.

[thomastillingthe3rd]

???? when it comes to insults "Hypocrites, visionless, elitist and very unrepresentative" their your words.

Labelling the unions in the negative as you did is itself tedious and a smear, peddled by the right wing press which makes it worse thats all. And lets be honest Big Brother is one of the highest rating programmes of the last 10years so where is the insult Clegg looked good in the debate, he pickedup lost of votes (mori not me) he got to sit around the table next to George and David

[????]

er, I didn't label the unions in the negative I mentioned them once. Here:

" I don't actually believe that Labour could have possibly delivered them given it's heritage and union backing " That's all I said. So stop making shite up. I'm still waiting for you to explain how spending 30% above your income won't lead to bankruptcy by the way?

I think you're at best a bit paranoia, certainly not interested in actual debating, rather just porovocitive insults and like soooo many others make assumptions about what people based on what you assume are their politics rather than bothering to actually see what they are are saying. Can we have a reasonable debate? Can you stop avoiding answering points that have been put to you reasonably, insulting and saying people have said things they haven't? I'm not holding my breathe, if you want to arse about I'm quite happy to do so in the Lounge.

[Loz]

thomastillingthe3rd Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> LOZ why would make statments about TUPE when you

> clearly have a limited understanding. Consultation

> is justthat consulation on every issue, most

> salaries are contractual and by not transferring

> you are not made redundant you actually

> effectively resign on the grounds that the

> transfer is unfair and have totry your luck in a

> tribunal, which is generally stacked against you.

> as for length of service that may not be

> contractual if you look at your re-publushed staff

> hand book they printed a year before they proposed

> you TUPE ! so less whoopeeee and mor PAAAAAAAAAARP

> !

Your writing is a bit over-excited and difficult to read, but it sounds like you are saying that TUPE is useless and gives no protection?

> as for Eton in capitals those boys have no class

> except their own, dont let your imagination run

> away with itself.

You need to learn to play the ball and not the man. Judge Cameron on what he does, not which school he went to. I suspect you know less about Eton than you do about TUPE.