Are the Lib Dems broken.

[Brendan]

I hope he didn?t know he was going to enter into a coalition. Although considering the shitehawks that befoul Westminster who knows.

[DJKillaQueen]

They all lie and Uturn on policies though. I'm still smarting by the Tory elevtion promise not to put VAT on fuel bills...and then they did it anyway. All governements U-turn and then give us rhetoric that they 'had no choice' but to do it. It's why a lot of people have very little regard for politicians, seeing them as self interested, and dishonest.

[Townleygreen]

The Lib Dems claim - with some justification - that they have ensured that the new fees system is much fairer than that bequeathed by Labour, in that the poorer students will pay much less (if anything) from now on.

I think the Libs need to work harder to tell people what they HAVE achieved, in watering down/altering/liberalising the Cons policies. They need to get their message across to get their poll ratings to rise again.

[James Barber]

I had to smile when I spotted this thread this morning.

Morale is generally very high in the Lib Dems. In London we've seen a big NET increase in paid up members since the May elections. I suspect many thought they were Lib Dems but didn't see the point of joning as we were never going to be a position to exert national power. Others have realised that gaining power especially in a coalition means compromises and sometimes not getting what we'd want. Irony that we've always campaigned for Proportional Representation voting which would create coalitions. So whinging about the affects of coalitions!

It feels fantastic to see Lib Dem polices announced as govt policy - Green Deal, Pupil Premuium, ?10,000 tax allowance taking the poorest out of paying tax, increase in minimum wage (remember the tories were against the principle of minimum wages).

I wont pretend it feels great when tory policies happen - free schools, academies.

Some of the compromises feel good - postponing any Trident decision until 2016 but in the mean time reducing nuclear war heads and missiles by 25%. Some not so good - student tuition fees - tories wanted unlimited fees. We've brokered aprogressive solution but the context difficult when 10 yers ago 12% of kids started a degree and this year 43%.

The principles agreed and announced last week of Welfare reform with ultimately one system created, guaranteed no one will be worse of, look good so that in the future it will always make sense for people to undertake paid work and be better of.

The icing on the cake will be an elected House of Lords - effectively an end to the feudalism that has ruled us for millenia. If the fairer votes referenudm works out then even if people are disaffected with all the three main parites they stand a better chance of voting in someone else.

[DJKillaQueen]

Ever the optimist eh James!

Welfare reform with ultimately one system created, guaranteed no one will be worse of

Oh so the HB reforms, the loss of 10% after a year, the removal of vulnerable people (primarily those with depression and mental health problems from ESA after a year).......maybe you'd like to take that ludicrous statement back.

[SeanMacGabhann]

can only agree with DJKQ James -

is a breathtakingly optimistic statement, bordering on Orwellian use of language. As an aspiration it's laudable, but I suspect (and will be happy to be proved wrong) that the numbers worse off will be legion

[DJKillaQueen]

It also transpires that Nick Clegg had panned to dump his parties pledge on tuition fees two months before the election as well. And the NUS are going to field candidates at the next general election in areas held by Lib Dems with large student populations including Nick Cleggs own constituency. Well between that and the unemployed of Sheffield that badly need the 3000 jobs that would have been created by the Sheffield forgemasters grant, my message to Nick would be 'enjoy it while you can'.

[Ridgley]

Yes I have to agree with DJKQ James, on this now we have a coalition goveremnt for five years we will see?

[Brendan]

It?s funny how all this vitriol about Lib Dem ?betrayal? comes almost exclusively from Labour supporters.

If you remember they first tried to negotiate a power sharing deal with Labour but the Labour party refused to compromise on anything. Cynically in my opinion, and I?m pretty sure on the advice of that Mandleson character, because Labour had no interest in winning this election. It was a ?good one to loose? as the next few years were going to make any party in power deeply unpopular.

If the Labour party had responded in good faith and in a spirit of mutual trust and cooperation a stable government with an ideology based on social justice could have been formed. Instead they are playing politics in an attempt to kick their biggest threat, the Liberals, into touch*.

So now we have to put up with a compromise where conservative policies which most of the population find morally detestable have to be tolerated in exchange for a few bones being thrown to the liberal agenda.

Most supporters of the Lib Dems are not happy with the outcome necessarily but they do understand it while this bile filled bluster about betrayal comes from people who didn?t even vote from them.

*Don?t think for a minute mind that the Tories don?t currently have a gaggle of smarm trying to manipulate the current situation to the same ends.

[Ridgley]

Actually I did vote for them, and yeh" I can really see the students understanding as demonstrated last Wednesday

[Loz]

As another LibDem voter, I can see the students' point, but didn't Labour do pretty much the same thing (sans silly pledge) twice to the students?

Not sure the NUS fielding it's own candidate will work - under FPTP it just takes votes out of the system. Unless they know that either a) most students voted LibDem or b) only the LibDem voting students will change their vote then it may not have the effect they hoped for.

It's a shame, really - as Townleygreen pointed out, the new system is much fairer but the headlines are not reflecting this, only the raising of the cap.

[sedgewick]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> As another LibDem voter, I can see the students'

> point, but didn't Labour do pretty much the same

> thing (sans silly pledge) twice to the students?

>

> Not sure the NUS fielding it's own candidate will

> work - under FPTP it just takes votes out of the

> system. Unless they know that either a) most

> students voted LibDem or b) only the LibDem voting

> students will change their vote then it may not

> have the effect they hoped for.

>

> It's a shame, really - as Townleygreen pointed

> out, the new system is much fairer but the

> headlines are not reflecting this, only the

> raising of the cap.

I think people are making a bigger noise because its the Tories this time round and there are so many anti Tories in the student camp because they are seeing their first Thatcherite policies being implemented before their very eyes, after studying the Iron Lady in their politics class.

[DJKillaQueen]

But according to inside reports Breandan, Nick clegg never had any intention of forming coalition with Labour. It's been all over the papers for the last few days that Brown was kept tagged along only to facilitate the Tory deal. That's what politicians do.

Btw I HAVE voted Lib Dem before because I'm one of those floating voters. Equally I can in turn respond with why is any criticism of Nick Clegg and his party always met with the Labour voter comment?

Truth is anyway that Labour got way more votes than the Lib Dems so I think any indignation by Labour voters is justified. Essentially it only goes to reinforce that we live in a two party state and that the desperate Lib Dems, frozen out by that, will do anything to get a slice. Unfortunately it will be to their leaders downfall....and for me it is all about Nick Clegg....he has too little experience of consituent politics for the position he now holds.

[DJKillaQueen]

That's a very simplistic and partisan view Sedgewick. And you forget there's a very good reason why protest was less under Labour. Labour did put money back into the NHS, Education, created the minimum wage etc.....things that were starved or non-existent under the Thatcher government. People have forgotton just how miserable things were in the 80's for many of the poorest and most vulnerable, or don;t know any better because they've been sheltered by privilege.

[Loz]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> And you forget there's a very good

> reason why protest was less under Labour.

Errm... because they made it illegal to protest within 1km of Parliament Square, perhaps?

[DJKillaQueen]

No lol......and that didn't stop people protesting anyway!

[Bicep_Builder]

Anyone who didn't vote Tory this time around is clearly pretty daft anyway. Brown was broken (eager to capitulate after, and who could blame him?) and the Lib Dems have always been as useless as a chocolate teapot. They're only really any good as human shields; a role which Cameron has employed them hilariously effectively.

[Loz]

Bicep_Builder Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Anyone who didn't vote Tory this time around is

> clearly pretty daft anyway. Brown was broken

> (eager to capitulate after, and who could blame

> him?) and the Lib Dems have always been as useless

> as a chocolate teapot. They're only really any

> good as human shields; a role which Cameron has

> employed them hilariously effectively.

The problem is that there are are a significant number of people that, if they were offered an election choice between:

a) The Tories

b) Hitler

c) Satan

d) Having your right leg amputated

would rule out choice (a) first.

[James Barber]

I found this blog interesting:

Has Clegg-hatred become a substitute for political renewal?

In summary it suggests:

"But outside the ranks of Labour supporters, there is no such anger. A mere 2% of current Lib Dem supporters and a mere 3% of Conservative supporters rate Nick Clegg?s performance as very bad. This anger is an entirely partisan phenomenon.

What it means, I think, is that there is a dialogue of the deaf. Current Lib Dems and Tories don?t understand Labour anger. Labour supporters don?t appreciate that their reaction is particular to them.

Labour will no doubt feel confident that it will hang onto the support of the very unhappy. But making Nick Clegg into a human pi?ata doesn?t look like a promising way of getting many new recruits."

[????]

Labour are in a 1980s wet dream protest and revolution fest and loving it. You can see it their eyes, sod responsibility and government "maggiee, maggie, maggie out out out".the new labour oh so funny "Con Dems" , actually offensive inverted class war (hysteriical from a bunch of middle class teachers and, er, academics sons bought up in a ?1.5 million house left to them in trust by their 'communist' dad.....tax evasion ok for Labour families obvioulsy(see also Tony "We've got a mortgage" Benn's Holland Park mansions, er also left in trust to avoid death duties.)...oh "we've got our party back" as the welsh winbag said.

[david_carnell]

Did you actually breathe when typing that?

Or just regurgitate something from here?

[DJKillaQueen]

We'll see if Nick gets re-elected in Sheffield shall we....where there is a large student population and a high level of unemployed who desperately needed the 3000 jobs the grant to Sheffield forgemasters would have created.

[SeanMacGabhann]

2/10 quids

unless you mean it. In which case can I introduce you my (in effect) father-in-law

Ps I hate the childish use of Con-Dems as much as you seem to. I don't think it's just a Labour thing tho. or Lib thing. I know many a tory voter at work who thinks it's hilarious to use that phrase.

[James Barber]

Hi DJKillaQueen,

I think you've ridiculously over egging things.

The BBC reported Sheffield Forgemasters ?80M proposed government loan would create 180 additonal jobs to make parts for nuclear power stations. Another alternative would be for Foremaster to issue a rights issue or commercial bonds OR it doesn't make commercial sense and the jobs would be short lived.

Nick Clegg won with a majority of 15,000 votes with second place to a tory. Attempts to 'de capitate' him are extremely unlikely to succeed but do generate sensationalist headlines. Being in coalition with the tories probably means a proportion of those tory voters will vote for him. So 2015 it seems very likely his majority will rise even if the absolute number of votes he receives is distracted by a spoiler candidate.

[DJKillaQueen]

James. not for the first time have you got your figures wrong - still chuckling at the one where you didn't even know what Southwarks annula budget was.