Are the Lib Dems broken.

[david_carnell]

Also - tube drivers - as a result of Bob Crow's hard line tactics and Ken Livingstone's craven indulgence of them - now earn very much more than a London nurse (somewhere between 50% - 100% more) for a job that requires little in the way of unique skills, ability or knowledge.

This is merely an argument that nurses are rather underpaid and undervalued. Perhaps the RCN should take a note from Bob's book.

And being a tube driver is a shitty job. Terrible working conditions (dark, hot, dusty) and with the responsibility for the lives and safety of thousands of passengers.

If you think you could do MM, due to its "unskilled" nature, I suggest you think again.

The tube provides a vital service, as witnessed when there are strikes, so I think the remuneration received is about right.

That doesn't mean I think tube drivers should earn more than nurses. But then nurses are an easy target. Did you earn more than a doctor when working in the NHS? I suspect so. And you were, in current Tory parlance, a backline pen-pusher. A manager. A bureaucrat. Thems the breaks I guess.

[Marmora Man]

David - shitty jobs are many - tube driver level salaries for such work are few. And yes - I do believe that with a 5 day induction I could handle a tube driver's job.

Transport is a vital service - one reason why it should not be subject to strikes. It is not a reason, of itself, to pay inflated salaries.

Yes - when I was in the NHS I was paid more than some nurses - but less than others (modern matrons etc). When I was in the NHS I successfully downsized my department and reduced admin / managwement costs by over 20% - losing in the process many useless pen pushers and bureaucrats. Some managers are worth their salt, others not so much.

[Chippy Minton]

You could be a tube driver after a 5-day induction course!!!! Please let me know if this ever happens as TfL seems to think it takes at least six months.

[Loz]

Chippy Minton Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You could be a tube driver after a 5-day induction

> course!!!! Please let me know if this ever happens

> as TfL seems to think it takes at least six

> months.

Not quite what he said. Yes, TfL may take six months, but is that *really* necessary? Go forward. Stop. Open doors. Close doors. Go on strike. It's hardly rocket science. Though I hear the three-point-turn test is tricky.

Of course, there are the other skills, like when you terminate a service, learning to walk as s-l-o-w-l-y a-s p-o-s-s-i-b-l-e when manually closing all the doors, and so keeping the next service at a red for as long as you can. But I think they learn that one on the job.

[Chippy Minton]

That is exactly what he said: "I do believe that with a 5 day induction I could handle a tube driver's job."

I trust TfL to make the judgement on what's "*really* necesary" rather than you.

[Marmora Man]

Chippy Minton Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> That is exactly what he said: "I do believe that

> with a 5 day induction I could handle a tube

> driver's job."

>

> I trust TfL to make the judgement on what's

> "*really* necesary" rather than you.

Chippy - as some already know I was trained to drive a nuclear poweered submarine in less than 6 months. I cannot conceive that a tube train is more complicated than a ?1bn, 6,000 ton warship crewed by 150 men, armed with torpedoes and missiles and operating in a hostile (I mean underwater - not under attack) environment for periods of up to 4 months.

As Loz pointed out stop / go / close doors / open doors aren't tough tests of intellect or physical dexterity.

[Chippy Minton]

Conceive it or not, TfL won't let you drive a tube after a five-day induction.

I suspect they've got their reasons behind this policy ;-)

[david_carnell]

Loz - What is the evacuation procedure for 2000 people, 100ft underground in pitch darkness?

Pass?

That's because it's on day 6 of the training.

Drivers have to concentrate for long periods of time while alone, and although much of the day can be rather tedious, they have to be alert at all times. Working shifts around the clock, seven days a week, often at irregular hours on bank holidays and at weekends, can be tiring and make it difficult to have a social life.

Tube trains are dirty, and drivers' skin and clothes are filthy after working a shift. It is also dark in the tunnels, and the lack of scenery can get depressing.

I reckon that might be worth ?30k

Honestly, the arrogance of some people on here with the "I could do that" approach is breath taking. I mean really - how hard can a submarine be to drive? I've played those sim games with a joystick on my computer....reckon I could crack it in a couple of weeks. And I've already got the roll-neck jumper! Of course not. But that's because your jobs are difficult. Right?

[thomastillingthe3rd]

Oh sorry Loz think I lost a post.

As for reading the Gaurdian i am really not sure what credentials you think that gives you. Judging by your comments, none is the answer.

And before you and the rest of silly mates whinge about the use of the word bitch, throwing around the word Moron at people you have never met aint very clever.

" term for a person with a mental age between 8 and 12, and a common insult for a person considered stupid "

I can only judge you on the ridiculous twaddle u type, so if the cap fits wear it with pride.

[Loz]

I had seen your lost post. I suspect the admin took umbrage at your tone and language and general unpleasant demeanour.

PS Can we have Chippy back? We may disagree, but at least he makes a good argument.

[thomastillingthe3rd]

Watched Vince 'the hat' Cable today in front of select committee, they were questioning him about banks lending and asked why the chancellor had declined the invitation to attend. After his rather waffling response the Chair of the committee replied that they had the Monkey but the organ grinder had clearly chosen to stay at home!!! I almost fell over my shoes laughing.

[thomastillingthe3rd]

Oh right , calling you a bitch in response to you calling Bob Crow a Moron.

As for demeanor dear it was pleasant I even said night night!

You gave it out as you have done many times in the past so you got it back. If your mates in admin did not like it i suspect it was because one of their little friends was getting a well deserved and long overdue tickle. Try your attitude out off the blog, maybe next time you are out in ED, and let me know what the response is? Dont be surprised if in the reality outside of this arena someone drops a half chewed olive in your white wine spritzer.

Now as for TFL i hope someone from it shuts the bus doors on your sling backs !

[Loz]

DC - I would agree entirely. ?30K would be fair annual pay for the duties and responsibilities of being a tube driver.

Which makes me wonder why the hell they earn ?42,424 to ?44,267 a year.

[thomastillingthe3rd]

What bloody planet are you on. You think a tube driver getting paid 42grand is too much? why is that then? they carried 1.1billion people last year all spending a shed load of money within our economy. When Bob took over a tube driver earnt the same as a bus driver 27grand. now they earn 42grand so good for them. Only some pompous little wally who has probably never done their job or carried out their responsibilites would start lecturing people on what they should be earning.

I recently walked from Nunhead to the Lovely new East London line at Brockley in 5mins, then climbed off my lovely new air conditioned train onto the jubilee line in under 15mins. Wow i thought what a wonderful new addition to the brilliant transport links that Nunhead already has. As I shuttled into the West End I thought the guys driving this can have 42grand any day. Reading in the metro on the way in that conservative head of Croydon Council awarded himself a 12% payrise, an extra 12grand a year to go on top of his already 115grand + pay, I thought good luck to them.

so wonder on ....who cares

[Chippy Minton]

Isn't the fact that they get paid this much an example of one of the magnificent achievements?

[Marmora Man]

What is the evacuation procedure for 2000 people, 100ft underground in pitch darkness?

Assuming the default option of waiting until the central coordination centre retires power / resolves the signalling problem is not possible then:

1. Initiate emergency lighting and communications

2. Ensure live rail is switched off - if not contact central coordination to have it switched off.

3. Reassure passengers - let them know you are in charge, that something is underway and that they will be safely looked after.

4. Using equipment provided in cab light the way to the nearest place of safety

5. Lead a crocodile of passengers to safety - use your position of authority to appoint sensible passengers to assist

the old, frail and vulnerable.

I may have missed some nuances and, until I've completed my 5 day induction, I can't be too sure about theblocation of power controls, the emergency equipment in the cab but I think my plan will work.

Insisting that a tube driver requires 6 month training is simply creating a barrier to entry and denying job opportunities, inflating the workforce and costing unnecessary money. During recent tube strikes management did drive some trains - tho' admittedly much of t/l / tuba managers are probably ex drivers.

[Loz]

Chippy Minton Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Isn't the fact that they get paid this much an

> example of one of the magnificent achievements?

I am not denying that having Crow around is advantageous to RMT members. There is also no denying he is very good at his job. But I'd like to think that the term 'magnificent achievement' somehow relates to the greater good. And, I'm sorry, but there is no way that anything Bob Crow has ever done has been for the greater good. In fact, I could argue his 'achievements' have been quite the opposite.

[Chippy Minton]

Ahh, my apologies...I didn't realise you thought 'magnificent achievement' should be related to the greater good. In the context of this discussion, I thought it was related to his 'achievements' on behalf of paying RMT members and for actually doing what he is paid to do extremely well :-$

[Huguenot]

Ha ha Chippy. I think that if Bob did what he does in any other market it would be called price gouging.

If his job was price gouging then he does it well, but it's nothing to be proud of.

I suspect the six month 'training' has little to do with education or skills, and more to do with management extending their options to sack disruptive staff for failing to complete their training.

Bob doesn't use the union to look after health and saftey, he uses it to leverage pay and perks through threats and menaces. Perks that he has protected include restricting management overview of facilities so that station staff can get legless on Heineken and hide the empty tins in cupboards in peace.

[sagatelsagouni]

Now they have that ginger headed school boy, fagging for Osbourne, trying to scupper the talks being held by the joint unions. The conservatives are set the unions up for a fight, hoping to break them, strip out more terms and conditions for workers. This is just so companies can stutter on for another 4+ years, keeping their noses above the profit margins at the expense of people's living and working conditions. Then what happens when there is finally nothing left to cut, then the wheels fall off. Osbourne and hsi boy servant Gary Alexander retreat to their castles.

It's funny how silent , the rest of the Liberal front bench were on this, I bet your embarassed , you should be, your bloody fascist liberal credentials are clear for all to see, well and truly outed, Well done.

[Huguenot]

"your bloody fascist liberal credentials are clear for all to see"

What on earth is that supposed to mean? Is this what passes for sensible debate in your neck of the woods? Who are you trying to impress? Are they worth impressing if they're impressed by this?

You're not another incarnation of AllforNun are you?

So many questions - and so little likelihood of a sensible response. Another one to 'hide' I guess.

[Loz]

This is just so companies can stutter on for another 4+ years, keeping their noses above the profit margins at the expense of people's living and working conditions.

... as opposed to just letting 'stuttering' companies go to the wall, with the loss of all jobs. That'll really improve people's living conditions.

[sagatelsagouni]

There you go liz, you answered your own question. Maybe the systems broke.....what now dear?

[sagatelsagouni]

"What on earth is that supposed to mean? "

The modern progressive left is the heir to the fascism of the 30?s and 40?s. It is only meaningless to you Hugenot because you are ignorant of the history involved. Start with H G Wells.

[Huguenot]

As I mentioned - zilch chance of sensible response.

The idea that we take the extreme right-winger shock-commentator Jonah Goldberg as the source of intelligent comment on liberalism is pathetic. He claimed Woodrow Wilson, Franklin Roosevelt, JFK, Lyndon B. Johnson and Bill Clinton were all fascists.

He based this on the view that Liberals tend to be interested in organic foods, public healthcare and animal rights. He explained that since the Fascists also had these views then that means Liberals were Fascists.

This is the observations of cretin. It would be ridiculous to ally yourself with him.

I mights as well claim that you're a Fascist on the basis that you both wear underwear and sleep in a bed.

As I mentioned, that 'hide' button is flashing red.