Breastfeeding toddlers..

[GinaG3]

I'm just generally looking for experience in breastfeeding toddlers really.

I'm feeling so frustrated of late. DD is 22 months old now and we are still breastfeeding (not that I mind, I still love it). We've been through a variety of problems since around 14 months including violent episodes, constant waking in the night etc. We go through phase after phase of different things, not all problems as such! Breastfeeding a toddler is a totally different experience to feeding a baby, in my case anyway. We had problems in the beginning with latch and struggled to get this right for 2 months after that everything was brilliant between then and 14 months. Everything is still good on and off but I'm finding myself so wound up with it.

For the past 2-3 weeks its been pretty full on exclusive breastfeeding, she was a good eater but now refuses to eat absolutely all meals and just snacks on a couple of bits throughout the day. I'm finding it pretty grueling to be honest. She is constantly picking at me when she is feeding, I have a rather deep cut on one breast where she picks and picks, and a mole on my chest the other side which is now half missing and very itching and stinging because of more picking. I try and hold her hands, cover the cuts, distract her literally anything but it doesn't work, she tantrums and tantrums until I give in and let her pick away at me. I have a feeling this is another form of comfort, she used to pick my cuticles while feeding and did exactly the same things but outgrew the habit in no time at all.

I'm a breastfeeding counselor so I know my stuff regarding breastfeeding, but this is the behavior more than anything. I'm out of my depth here, having never breastfed before and with it seems less and less people around that can give experiences of feeding toddlers. My mum breastfed all 5 of us kids through toddlerhood and expects she is trying to give up feeding and wean herself but doesn't quite know if she is ready to do it so is maybe looking for an excuse to make me do it for her! Anyone had experiences like this? Lord knows how I will ever wean her, my plan isn't in place from over a year still..

I'm proud of myself coming this far, no-one ever believed I'd do it as a 'late' teen mother let alone this long but I just feel like its taking all my energy and I'm feeling increasing frustrated, moody and not to mention still hormonal yet I just cannot bring myself to give it up just try and try to work through the problems.

Sorry for the long ranty thread, well done if you got through it. Advice please?

P.S Mummies with smaller babies don't be put off feeding a toddler its still brilliant, kids just come with a lot of 'yet to learn' packages don't they?! Time to teach..

[Keef]

Can't offer any advise (obviously), but just wanted to say good for you. I will also read with interest any responses you get, as Mrs Keef is still breast feeding our 18 month old, and this will probably continue at least until she's 2.

[chantelle]

i'd try to explain and reason with her, repeatedly. She should be just about able to understand consequences, and that picking at mummy means no feeding. Maybe there's something else you could introduce for her to hold and make that same comforting motion while she feeds??

[crystal7]

Sorry no advice but just wanted to say (in a non patronising way!) you've done amzingly well. My daughter self weaned at 16 months and I found that lots of people were quite disapproving (including my HV) that I'd continued beyond a year and that was difficult. Hope you get lots of good advice.

[Keef]

(including my HV)

No surprises there, Mrs Keef was told by an HV that she should stop when our daughter was about 6 months, because she wasn't putting enough weight on. GP heard that and said it was total nonsense. There are some good HVs, but all too many of them haven't got a feckin clue, and just advise you based on what they personally think about parenting.

[Saffron]

My daughter is only 10mo, but she also likes to pick at me sometimes when feeding. Long-sleeved bfing tops which only allow a limited access to the nipple are one solution, although they are not always the most comfortable. Sometimes I notice that she picks and pinches more when she's having trouble winding down. In this case, I put her in her cot and leave the room for a few minutes (to rub my sore arms, ouch!). She has a little cry, blows off some steam, and then is more relaxed for nursing.

Good luck,

Safff

[BB100]

If DD is 22 months then DD should be able to understand if you explain why you don't like the picking. Everytime DD tries to pick, stand up and look DD straight in the eye and in a calm but firm voice say 'no picking' and say it is hurting you and you don't like it. You must stand up and take her off your lap everytime she tries to pick to interrupt her habit and so she gets the message.

Also offer DD an orange to pick as an alternative and keep your other breast protected in a well-padded bra. You maybe right and DD is frustrated that he/she is not being satisfied by your milk and so is now constantly hungry. Try offering food before the breast everytime and try to invlove your child in the food preparation - maybe even pretending that it is your milk that is going into the cereal bowl.

Also cut her nails! Please let us know how you get on.

[GinaG3]

Thanks for all replies. I'm a bit happier now.

Feel I have exhausted all ideas. I have tried necklaces, something in the other hand, saying no and taking her off etc. I offer tiny snacks before breast if its not before meal time and I can get away with it but she still wants it. My daughter understands everything, she is intelligent for her age but still cannot take no for an answer. Its so horrible because I don't want to stop, its something we both still enjoy when she can behave herself. But I feel I will have no choice if it continues as it is. At least we don't night feed anymore (typically 10pm then 8am), that would make it double hard, this is where the more violent (kicking, punching, hair pulling, biting) phase happened.. I just do not get it!!!

crystal, thanks for that. Health professionals of all kinds seem to express their own opinions on this subject. Recently I visited the doctors and mentioned a still breastfed with which came the question how old and how many times she was on in 24 hours, the doctor nearly fell of her chair when I told her upwards of 20 times a day before telling me I need to stop breastfeeding so she can go to nursery and be social blah, blah. I've had astonishing advice even with a newborn, it never stops amazing me some of it. For this reason I decided to train as a peer counselor, women need that reassurance and up to date advice, they don't need knocked down and made to feel they are doing something wrong.. Ridiculous!

[Ruth_Baldock]

Gina, no advice but to echo others- good for you!!!! Women between 16-24 are least likely to even attempt to bf, let alone do it for 22 months! (I'm 25 And am breastfeeding my 11 month old. I hope to continue until he's at least 2)

agree with saffron, my son fiddles when he's a bit wired. I do the same as saffron, put baby down and leave the room for a. Few minutes. 9/10 it works.

[Helen GV]

lots of good advice already and I don't really have any more, but just wanted to add my encouragement and to say I am still breastfeeding my little boy, who is now 26 months, a couple of times a day. He went through a stage a few months ago of not eating much and wanting more boobie, also of tweaking the other nipple while breastfeeding, which was painful and intensely irritating but which he insisted on doing and would really fight me when i protected it from him! Despite all that I did to discourage him i think that he just forgot about it one day and hasn't done it since. it could have been the shock of his new sister arriving of course... ;o) best of luck, her appetite will soon come back and in the meantime she's not starving, and you can eat more cake!

[BB100]

GinaG3 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Feel I have exhausted all ideas. I have tried

> necklaces, something in the other hand, saying no

> and taking her off etc. I offer tiny snacks

If you try too many things you are making it too interesting for her and she will continue, looking to see what you will offer her next time. Just stick to one thing, which I suggest should be getting up and walking away from her everytime she does it.

[Fuschia]

I think unfortunately a toddler is a totally self- centred person and will always demand you give in to all their wants.. they don't see you at all as an autonomous person with a right to her own body.

I don't have any easy answer for you, except to say that you have the right not to be picked at, pinched, tantrumed at and unlike with a newborn, for a toddler needs and wants ar enot identical!

There are sure to be some good articles about this on the net, i will have a look

[The Nappy Lady]

Gina,

I'm so sorry you're going through this. I don't have any magic answer, but agree you should be firm with your daughter. She knows what she wants, and I suspect that if you make it clear that this behaviour is not acceptable (to quote the demon Super Nanny), that she will adapt her behaviour in order to get what she really wants. If breast is what she wants, then she will work out that the pinching, picking etc. gets it taken away.......this means being really firm, and possibly putting up with some screaming/shouting/tantrums, but in my experience (only had 2, so no expert) these tend to be storms in tea cups, which soon pass when they reaslise that you are not reacting to them.

Was going to suggest necklaces, which I see you've already tried them. I have a theory on this - which may be unfounded, but with DD1 - she scratched me, tweaked opposite nipple whilst feeding etc. and it was really awful - if I tried to put my hand over the other nipple she would poke and prod and scratch to pull my hand away to get to the nipple, and in the end I would give in. We stopped feeding at 16 months when she gave up of her own accord, but I can't deny it was a bit of a relief as it was becoming less enjoyable for these reasons. However...

With DD2, I used necklaces from pretty much day 1, and so she never developed any bad habits - always played with the necklaces rather than me. I fed her until the day before she turned 2 and never had any of the nasty stuff at all. Now, maybe she was just a different child, as clearly not all children do this pinching/tweaking etc. but I do wonder if stopping the bad habits from starting via the necklaces really helped - who knows.

I actually still have a box of necklaces under my bed - used to have them out at nappy demos, but now they have stopped I've done nothing with them. This thread has reminded me about them, and I will probably put them into an NCT sale next year, but if anyone is interested in the meantime do give me a shout.

Gina, I really hope things do improve, do let us know how you get on.

xx

[redjam]

Been reading this thread with great interest. No advice as such, but may I ask something that will no doubt make me very unpopular? I'm just wondering why you really want to continue breastfeeding so much? I don't mean that aggressively - it's a genuine question. You've clearly done an amazing job breastfeeding for this long, and I know you say you enjoy it, but feeding over twenty times a day, being picked at, punched, having hair pulled, bleeding moles, cuts ... I'm sorry, but that doesn't sound enjoyable at all. And at twenty-two months, your daughter can be getting all the nourishment she needs from solid food, not to mention time away from you to form other social attachments, improve speech etc.

I should state I'm completely pro-breastfeeding; I fed both of my kids till I went back to work. But in my own case, I wish I'd stopped breastfeeding my second daughter much earlier (she had lots of problems not putting on enough weight which caused a great deal of family stress, and things only improved when she switched to a high-fat formula milk). Effectively I wish someone had given me 'permission' to stop earlier - like a lot of mums, I felt I had to do the 'right thing' even when, perhaps, common sense should have told me otherwise. Now I know I may be extrapolating too much here from my own situation, but it did cross my mind that the same thing might be happening to you, especially as you probably feel under extra pressure to be the perfect mum given that you say no one expected you to breastfeed at all, let alone this long.

Just to be clear, I'm absolutely pro-breastfeeding (toddlers as well as babies - don't have a problem with it!), but equally I believe we mums put ourselves under a great deal of pressure sometimes, and it's important that we step back and look at the bigger picture occasionally. I know how hard it is to wean, emotionally-speaking, but equally I know that both times I've done it I felt like a different person afterwards and wondered why I'd agonised about it for so long. Anyway, just throwing it out there - I shall sit back now and wait to be shot down in flames!

[Fuschia]

Rj: I am still bf my twin toddlers, despite being 37w pregnant! And a lot of the time it drives me mad... I expected themto stop as my milk dried up or turned to colostrum. Will need to go beyond "Don't offer, don't refuse" to "Tell them to bugger off" I think.

Why do we do these things when we don't enjoy them? i don't know, a lot of being a mother is like that, isn't it? And it's not like a baby goes past being a toddler to the day you can say "Don't need milk anymore" .. not unless you are someone with a firm end date fixed in your mind, like 6m, 1y, going back to work, starting TTc no 2, getting pg with no 2, 2 yo, something like that. Most of us just have a vague idea "When they're ready"

IME of 3 children, bf can be hard at first, then it gets easy, saves times, vey convenient.. then you get to toddlers, and although it is undoubtedly very handy when dealing with tantrumes, sick children etc (was a real boon in casualty the other night when my daughter was screaming in hysterical panic and exhaustion at 2am) if truth be told I think it gets hard agaain, the poor mother is overwhelmed by the demands of the toddler. Whether non bf toddlers demand so much from their mothers I don't know... the benefit for me of bf mine past toddlerhood has been that tantrums have neve rbeen too muich of a problem, but maybe I just have a high tolerance for those anyway...

[gwod]

I agree with your mum, it may be time to stop. If your daughter is fidgety during the feed the chances are that she is not feeding so well as before or even deriving the pleasure that she once did from it, and if she is hurting you it is prob not the bonding experience it once was (not that you prob need any further help with that!) Giving up seems a very hard thing to do emotionally because it means taking away something that you would gladly give them if they needed it, and always in the back of your mind you guiltity wonder if they still do. And of course it marks the end of their babyhood which can be very hard for the mum (it was for me, especially with my youngest as I knew I would have no more to feed). I am not part of the non breastfeeding lobby, and would completely support your choice if you decided to go on, but to me it sounds as though the time has come.

Best of luck - whatever you choose to do will work out fine!

[GinaG3]

RJ: I'm not offended by your comment so no worries. I absolutely love breastfeeding, I would do it for many years and not even give a thought to stopping. Its a hard one to explain, I have a million and one reasons to continue. I enjoy it (most of the time), she enjoys it (all the time), our bond is so strong, my milk still has nutritional values, it cheers her up in the worst situations, it comforts her when she is in pain or hurt, it makes her so independent (she is ready for anything after a bit of mummy juice), its makes her less shy (when we are around people), the list does go on and on. Its also such a natural thing to do, it creates a awareness of breastfeeding when I'm seen feeding in public (very important reason, what can I say I'm a pioneer). The world average for weaning off the breast is actually 6 years of age. I wouldn't quite go that far but I would still feed up until about 3-4y happily..

Fuschia: I agree with your comments 110% and I'm exactly the same as you, it would seem! Well done you, another baby soon.. Good luck with all that. Are you going to feed all 3 if possible? Amazing!

gwod: Thanks for your comment, I would find it very hard emotionally. I'm the kind of parent albeit young that would go to the end of the earth for my child, she controls my life totally. I want to do the best in my power for her whatever that may be. I just feel I cannot do the hysterics that will come with stopping feeding her. It would hurt me so much to see her go through that. We'd probably both be nervous wrecks in the corner for weeks on end, no lie! I wish the day would come naturally where she just says 'mummy I'm a big girl now, I'm not going to have booboo anymore' or just forgets about it. Thanks for the wishes of good luck.

Well we will see what happens today. Its shopping day so we've been away from each other since 8.30 this morning, while Nana babysits and I do shopping in peace. Some weeks she doesn't even blink and she wants me to feed her, I don't even have time to get my coat off. Sometimes she doesn't even notice I'm there or booboo is there.

My fingers are hurting now, more manic typing later...

[mitchcoker]

Gina,

I'm in complete sympathy with your situation. I've spent the last 2 weeks getting my 26 month old boy off the boobie. It's been a nightmare.....and no amount of talking through it helped. Sorry to say. I resorted to polar neck/scarf/coat & sticking to my guns. There have been daily tears & tantrums and refusals to eat, but we are out the otherside now. My first boy only had about 4 days of this behaviour, so it's been quite a shock and very tiring. My daily saving grace has been daddy (if he's around at bed time) putting him to bed, so my son doesn't get a chance to insist on his nightly fix. That was so helpful.

And last night I put him to bed without coat & had loads of cuddling without the mention of boobie. Hooray!

Sorry to suggest you may have a horrid 2 weeks ahead of you.....Good Luck.

Thanks for bringing up the subject on the forum too...

Mitch

[cx2]

I read this thread with interest I too am strugglig with never offer, never refuse ...

[echo]

I've recently had to put down boundaries with my 26month old, of only a morning and bed time feed, as she was starting to constantly to demand more and more to mirror her new baby sister's feeding (now 3 months).

I'm offering rewards to praise her non asking and explaining she is a big girl etc, etc.. such as spending big girl time with her of baking, cooking etc. It's not too bad during the day now (the tatrum which ended me tandem feeding at a friends sunday lunch was the final straw for me!), but during the night she has crying fits when I refuse.. (difficult...)

I personally would not feed my toddler if she was attacking me. Mine did at 14 months keep biting me which led to my breasts developing a serious infection. I used to take her off and refuse to feed her. After a week or two(?) she did stop...

I suppose you need to think through where your boundaries lie. The thing with breast feeding toddlers is that you feel you are the only one doing it, and therefore you are a bit odd and perhaps treating them as a baby. I'm currently getting lots of pressure to stop from my friends and family, so reading this tread is useful.

[Saffron]

Very interesting and useful comments from everyone! GinaG3, I do hope things are getting better for you :)

Your LO is really pushing your boundaries. Bright children can be especially difficult in this regard. Whatever your choice, stick to it. Children need firm boundaries. It's a cliche, but it's true. Your LO is trying to see how far you can be pushed, so she can know where the boundaries are. Instead of 'give them an inch, they'll take a mile.' It should be, 'give them an inch, they'll take a boobie.'

Just to add briefly, facial expression is very important for children. It plays directly to instinctive/subconsciuse areas of the brain. So when you say No, and take your LO off the breast, try making an exaggerated (but genuine!) sad face. Then say something like, 'That hurts. That makes Mummy make the sad face.' Make sure your LO really looks in your eyes and registers your expression (even though it may not trigger an immediate response). Leave your LO alone for a little while to let things cogitate, and try going back only after a set period of time, eg 3 min.

[The Nappy Lady]

Echo - I feel for you re pressure to stop - certain members of my family were doing the same to me and it was horrible.

My daughter is 25 months now & had her last feed the day before she turned 2. I was really nervous about stopping - there is a thread on here actually where I asked how best to stop.

In the end I dropped down to morning & night feeds only in September, then morning only 2 weeks later, then dropped that 4 weeks after that. I just told her "you're a big girl now, mmmys milk is all gone & she seemed to accept it easily. She does drink up to 3 beakers full of milk some mornings though! She's a milk fiend - "hot milky please Mummy"!

I felt it was the right time to stop for us, but hated feeling others were putting pressure on me.

[GinaG3]

I'm lucky in that I've had no-one pressuring me to stop. My parents and in laws are all for extended feeding and did it themselves so no worries there. Sympathize with those who have pressure put on them, its the mothers choice and no-one should question it (unless in extreme circumstances of course). The only pressure I've had is from health professionals, but this doesn't bother me whatsoever they shouldn't be giving their opinions when not needed anyway.

Out of interest did anybody PM the production company regarding the thread left on here a few days ago about a breastfeeding programme? Anyone who isn't shy really should get in contact with her. Breastfeeding programmes are so few and far between.

Thank you all for your comments. Im just going to persist with telling no when being naughty and putting her down. We did this yesterday and had head banging, feet kicking tantrums which I find horrible and quite upsetting but what more can I do if she doesn't want to listen. She is old enough to realise, and does most of the time that if she is good everythings nice and fun.

[Saffron]

Was just thinking of this thread this morning as Little Saff tried to dig a hole to Chine through my arm while nursing. This got her a merciless round of tickling that resulted in her forgetting about the boobie for a bit, and it chilled her out too.

If your LO has picked and picnched your skin a lot in one place, try convering these areas with hydrocolloid plasters (eg, blister plasters) or silicone sheets -- ask a pharmacist if they have these in larger sizes too. These will protect your skin and be more difficult to pick off.

Also, if your LO really seems to need something in her hands when nursing, perhaps you could try giving her one of those 'chicken fillet' type breast enhancers to play with? They have a texture very similar to skin. You can probably find some cheap ones on ebay.

xx

[Gubodge]

I think you are doing the right thing in persisting in taking her off the breast when she misbehaves on it. My feeling is that you have to separate what she is doing from the breastfeeding itself. In any other circumstances if she was repeatedly hurting you, you would put a stop to it, using whatever your usual disciplinary method is and she would probably throw a tantrum. It just wouldn't affect you so much as it wouldn't be so bound up with all the emotions that breastfeeding engenders. So, as well as taking her off the breast, I would put her on the thinking step or warn her that she'll lose her bedtime story or whatever. And above all keep in my mind that this too will pass...

If you would like to reduce her feeds, you could try going out with her for her to choose a special cup and twirly straw to have her milk from at specific times of the day.

Signed, A fellow peer counselor who's 2nd daughter breastfed until she was three and a half. There's more of us out here than you'd think.