Southwark consulting on borough-wide dog control orders

[elloriac]

Southwark started a public consultation on whether they should introduce a borough-wide dog control order. You can read the background and click through to fill out the questionnaire here:

http://www.southwark.gov.uk/news/article/143/southwark_explores_new_laws_to_tackle_out_of_control_dogs

It's a simple form with one page of questions, mostly multiple choice and one open-text field to give your general thoughts. The consultation runs through to February.

It mentions that a DCO is shortly to be introduced on One Tree Hill. Does anyone know what the restrictions will be? I've only been able to find various stuff dated 2008.

[first mate]

It's a pretty poorly designed survey. Aside from the bit on dog fouling it all seems rather vague- what is a children's play area exactly, is it an area that has been sectioned off specifically for children or any area where children play? If the latter that could be any open space at any time. What about all the kids that play footie in the park at weekends, does that mean dogs will be banned from those areas?

We already know that certain local politicos would like to see greater use of Peckham Rye by schools- making it a children's playing area and therefore subject to dog control orders and a ban......maybe??

The survey seems designed to get the most anti dog resposne possible and so could give Southwark the power to ban dogs from all kinds of areas. I know this would have some forumites jumping for joy but I would urge the responsible dog owning public to get onto this one now before it is too late.

[Rock N Roll Paddy]

"The survey seems designed to get the most anti dog resposne possible and so could give Southwark the power to ban dogs from all kinds of areas."

Good ... hopefully they'll ban dogs in the Borough and start a domino effect across London and then across the UK! I have had it to here with wading through canine crap day after day after day after day after day after day... And fed up having to endure the macho posturing of numbskulls wandering about with huge and ugly offensive weapons on leads, looking smug and hard. And sick to the back teeth of the yappy little mutt two doors down from me whose soprano manic barking irritates the life out of me.

I agree it's a poorly designed survey though. The bit where it asks about the ?50 spot fine? Only option for me was to strongly agree whereas I would have preferred to have been given the option of proposing a more appropriate fine such as ?500 fine plus confiscation of the offending beast.

[DJKillaQueen]

If you want to see a city really swamped with dog poo, go to Paris.

On the spot fines might work but only if the dog owner co-operates and can pay. Don't think we really need to clog up the courts with yet more pointless minor cases.

The vast majority of dog owners are responsible, let's not forget that. Southwark have already introduced compulsory registration and chipping of dogs owned by tenants. I think that's far enough.

[first mate]

Rock N Roll Paddy,

On the spot fines for not picking up after dog fouling we can all agree on. They could also have stated that on the spot fines would be issued for dogs off lead on streets, paths, around council estates etc..Most people would not have a problem with that either.

The way it reads at the moment makes the definition of children's play areas a moveable feast that could be applied to large sections of the parks etc.. That is not reasonable. Of course most people will say dogs should not be allowed into children's play areas, but without defining what those are the whole exercise could mean dog owners will be banned from large sections of the park in future. There needs to be clarity on this.

The fact remains that the vast majority of the dog owning public will continue to behave well and the thugs will just carry on. In all my time walking the parks I've seen the odd dodgy type with a dodgy dog up to no good, but there's never been a warden in sight. How will that change? Who will issue these fines? I don't buy it.

[first mate]

DJKQ

I agree with you about the practicalities of extracting money from ne'er do wells- it just ain't going to work. Southwark know it I'm sure, and this makes me wonder what the real agenda behind this survey is.

[TonyQuinn]

As I have said on many occasions on this particular subject and well done Southwark with grappling with the issue. Zero tolerance on fouling dogs and their owners. Extreme prejudice should be applied.

[DJKillaQueen]

Southwark can pass all the bye-laws it likes...the fact remains they won't be able to afford anything like the number of wardens needed to make any difference to dog fouling, and where they do find offenders will spend more money than they'll recoup from those they chase to court because they can't afford the ?50 fine. Totally unworkable and makes no financial sense.

[bonniebird]

I agree with DJKQ and First Mate. I think dog fouling needs to be dealt with, not by banning dogs or keeping them on lead, onlead dogs poo too, the owners who don't pick up should be punished, dogs should be kept on lead on streets, estates, but not parks. Dogs need to be allowed to run free and play and interact with other dogs or they'll go stir crazy. I think the dog license should be brought back and the revenue from it should pay for dog trainers/wardens to teach people responsible dog ownership. Anyone buying a dog should have to attend training classes and do the Good Citizen thing by the Kennel club, basic common sense, which some dog owners don't have unfortunately.

[h3+]

There should be a cost of owning a dog to deal with the costs of cleaning up after them. Given that licensing will probably not be cost effective perhaps some sort of levy on dog products like dog food would be possible.

[Rock N Roll Paddy]

@ DJKillaQueen "Southwark can pass all the bye-laws it likes...the fact remains they won't be able to afford anything like the number of wardens needed to make any difference to dog fouling, and where they do find offenders will spend more money than they'll recoup from those they chase to court because they can't afford the ?50 fine. Totally unworkable and makes no financial sense." So, that's all right then! Dog owners, please feel free to allow your animals to drop their guts all over the pavements with impunity.

@First Mate "The way it reads at the moment makes the definition of children's play areas a moveable feast that could be applied to large sections of the parks etc.. That is not reasonable. Of course most people will say dogs should not be allowed into children's play areas, but without defining what those are the whole exercise could mean dog owners will be banned from large sections of the park in future. There needs to be clarity on this." I wouldn't advocate banning dog owners from large sections of Southwark Parks. But I definitely *would* ban their dogs not just from large sections of the parks, but from any section of the park and - for that matter from the streets, the roads, the dwelling places. Having just wasted time yesterday clearing a huge pile of dog scheidt from my garden path yesterday (what eejit would allow their mutt to crap on someone's path?), I then had to waste more time after coming home from Peckham Rye on cleaning the sole of my wee lad's trainers with a toothbrush to get rid of some rancid canine deposit. I wish I could have found the owner of the dog who was responsible for that. He'd have been licking the soles of the trainers clean, the dirty clart!

[Pearson]

hahaha, I love these dog hating posts.

Kind of similar to cyclists and 4x4 drivers...

Massive generalizations about these particular subjects.

people love to hate :(

[boosboss]

Nice to see the ridiculous hysterics again.

The DCO does have some validity in replacing out of date bylaws and acts, although I agree clarity needs to be made within the consultation.

[first mate]

Yup,

My feeling is that Southwark are quite knowingly tapping into the extreme anti dog prejudice out there. There are all kinds of negative experiences that we could use as the basis to fly into a rage and ban things left right and centre- guess that's just the irrational side of human nature. The real question is will these sort of dog control orders achieve what they set out to do and I have to say it's unlikely and I really don't believe Southwark think it will either. It's just kneejerk stuff pandering to tabloid sentiments. The threat of fines and jail have hardly stopped boy racers, drink driving or wilful speeding (see Barry Road thread).

Finally Southwark say that they are working closely with Battersea and the RSPCA on dog control orders, I'd be keen to know the views of those organisations on how the proposed system will work in practice and how they would interpret the Southwark survey.

[Rock N Roll Paddy]

I don't hate dogs ... I just hate the fact that they crap indiscriminately all over the place and their antisocial handlers don't have the courtesy to clear their putrid gutrot up, instead preferring that it smears all over my little one. So, enough's enough. Nothing short of zero tolerance would get my vote.

[TonyQuinn]

There's nothing wrong with a little bit of hatred.

Now that you mention 4 by 4s.....get a life people and if you are one of those intolerable people who feel the urge to drive a tank please don't park on the corners of junctions. Its difficult enough trying to edge out the way some people drive and the way that the road network is in Dulwich.

I do like cyclists though!

Pearson Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> hahaha, I love these dog hating posts.

>

> Kind of similar to cyclists and 4x4 drivers...

> Massive generalizations about these particular

> subjects.

> people love to hate :(

[Rock N Roll Paddy]

And by the way, all this talk of "anti-dog prejudice" gets right on my wick. It's the same old lame argument trotted out by the NRA in America. Next thing we'll hear the yamwnsome old flannel. "Dogs aren't the problem, it's their owners." Yeah, well next time I see a dog's owner taking a dump in the middle of the pavement on Goodrich Road I may agree...

[computedshorty]

I have been wondering not owning a dog, how can a Warden identify the owner of a dog?

A dog as far as I know shows no identification showing such as a car number plate.

What power has a Warden to ask the owner to give their details as the owner?

If he chooses not to answer or even acknowledge that the Warden is speaking to him and just walks on, what could the Warden do?

Other than following him for the day until he goes home.

Is a dog registered to the owner, who is therefore responcible for it?

A dog that might appear to be with that person so charge him?

You sometime see a man begging with a dog, do you think for one moment that it would be pratical to give that man a ticket if it was seen breaking the law?

He can claim homeless of no fixed address so could never get a prosecution delivered to him.

Have you ever heard of a ticket served to the driver of a horse drawn vehicle leaving dung in the road?

[first mate]

Rock N Roll Paddy,

So will you be applying your zero tolerance approach to other, arguably more serious, types of anti social behaviour?

The yawnsome refrain is bang on- owners are the problem, I'm sure even you can figure out that a dog cannot pick up and bag its own poo.

[first mate]

computedshorty,

A point well made. Of course most dogs, owned by good citizens, are microchipped and hence both dog and owner are readily identified by a portable scanner. Natch, the antisocial type probably doesn't microchip, in the same way they may not pay car insurance or they may drive without a licence- of course these are just the types that wardens etc.. are not going to pull over and extract fines from- and we keep going round and round.

Sorry, edited to say that I did not want to imply the homeless are bad citizens. One of the GOOD things Southwark has been doing is offering free microchipping- quite how a homeless person would be identified in that instance I don't know name and place and DOB I guess??

[Pearson]

Rock N Roll Paddy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I don't hate dogs ... I just hate the fact that

> they crap indiscriminately all over the place and

> their antisocial handlers don't have the courtesy

> to clear their putrid gutrot up, instead

> preferring that it smears all over my little one.

> So, enough's enough. Nothing short of zero

> tolerance would get my vote.

______________________________________________________

I don't think anyone would argue with that.

But lets face it... it's not every dog owner!

Tends to be a small and ignorant minority.

Catch em, fine em and take their dog away from them.

[Pearson]

TonyQuinn Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> There's nothing wrong with a little bit of hatred.

>

> Now that you mention 4 by 4s.....get a life people

> and if you are one of those intolerable people who

> feel the urge to drive a tank please don't park on

> the corners of junctions. Its difficult enough

> trying to edge out the way some people drive and

> the way that the road network is in Dulwich.

> I do like cyclists though!

> --------------------------------------------------

Strange that the much loved people carrier get omitted

from this hatred of large vehicles? Which of course are

very popular for transporting kids around ED!

[DJKillaQueen]

You'll find far more fox poo in Peckham Rye Park for example than you will dog poo, and then there's rat and mice urine and poo and bird poo......and oh yes...what about men that piss all over the streets....? I do hope Southwark will be wasting money employing people to exercise inneffective zero tolerance on them.....lol.

You get the point.

[Pearson]

^hahaha

[computedshorty]

I dont think many Wardens would try to check for a microchip on a Doberman dog in the company of am sgitated owner refusing to give his details.

By the way this is three times a problem to me and my zimmer, as we have six feet.

Since time began a dog defends its owner, soon we will all be defenceless as all the dogs will be gone so will the Dog Wardens, mind you they will be able to claim Redundency and a Pension if entitaled to one from Southwark Borough Council

( YOU ).