Yet Another Crash on Barry Road - Underhill Road Junction

[cate]

If the relevant people could patrol the corners and issue tickets for bad parking that might help. I have seen wardens ticketing people on corners on Pellat Road. They were people parked across the dropped kerbs.

[Pugwash]

I too use this junctions - crashes have been more frequent since they extended the pavements at these junction to prevent parking. Coming from the CPR end of underhill and looking right - you have to edge out by at least half a car length. Same coming from the Henslowe Road side looking right as the railing and lights obsure vision.

The Barry Area Resident's Association also campaigned some months ago about this junction - which resulted in James getting the yellow lines painted. We did say to him at the time we had doubts about the effectiveness.

James et al. once you have had your 'site meeting' would it not be a good idea to hold a meeting at the East Dulwich Community Centre to discuss findings etc with local residents - BARA would be happy to set this up for one evening.

[James Barber]

Hi Pugwash,

Sounds a great idea. Lets get the on site meeting over with and see what's best after that and whether people want that.

[Nicholas]

trentk69 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Ok - I must be imagining all of the crashes that I

> see from my window then? I must also be wildly

> wrong in my estimations of speed that cars travel

> up and down the road that I see "speeding" on a

> daily basis.

>

> Lets all bury our heads in the sand then about

> this junction - and hope that this problem goes

> away shall we?

>

> On a side note and slightly cynical; It is also

> ironic that when you are pulled over by the police

> they do not take the same attitude "The Police

> have stated that many people think vehicels are

> actually travelling much faster than they actually

> are."

I'm a professional driving Instructor in Dulwich and agree with you(tu)

[DJKillaQueen]

And the police don't agree with you.

[Nicholas]

We don't have a speed camera in our brains and we can't be 100% accurate but I know at times some idoits drive along this road at excessive speeds and the law of averages say that when you get police speed checks most drivers behave themself and usually its the driver doing 38mph that gets it. In my opinion we need two speed cameras sited in the two most dangerous spots. Speeding and attitude is the real problem and ther'es not much we can do about that.

[DJKillaQueen]

But what does speed have to do with the driver that emerges from a junction with bad judgement. The last accident had no element of speed involved. In fact what every one does agree on is that it can be difficult for some emerging drivers to see oncoming traffic. Speed cameras will have no impact on that problem.

[Nicholas]

Speed has a big part of it. Yes, judgement from the emerging vehicle is crucial. But if the vehicles coming down Barry rd are exceeding the speed limit it makes it much harder to judge and consequently more likely to collide and do more damage. Of course emerging drivers need to observe carefully. If drivers would obey the speed limits we would have far less serious incidents. (Emerging from junctions is like crossing the road, how often do you get run over)

[kford]

Distraction is a bigger part of it, distraction from looking at your speedo when you should be looking for cars pulling out on you. I read somewhere that a one-second distraction at 30 mph could add 10mph to an impact.

This accident would still have happened with a speed camera in place.

[DJKillaQueen]

Quite kford. The accident that heads this thread was a car emerging, probably too quickly, from the junction, directly into the path of a bus, which was on the opposite side of the road - so visibility can't be an issue and given the size of a bus, and also had not long pulled away from a stop, making speed not a likely factor either. No amount of traffic calming measures would have stopped that particular accident.

I'm willing to bet that these junction accidents are on the whole, poor driver judgement, exacerbated by poor visibility, than speed.

[Mellors]

Another thing I find really difficuly at this junction is the amount of time you oftem have to wait to get across at peak times. Its really hard to get a decent gap in traffic going both ways to make it safely over during busy times.

I do wait until I am absolutely sure, but tell that to the queue of people backing up Underhill (and causing further traffic problems up there), and the impatient white van drivers behind you who go mental if you don't dash across (dangerously) into the smallest gap.

The pressure to pull out unsafely is immense, and that doesn't help at all.

[DJKillaQueen]

You should never pull out because some idiot behind you is impatient. Again that's poor driving. But what you say about peak times is true. It's true for a lot of roads. There are just too many cars in London and too many people driving their children to school (a major contribution to local traffic) at peak times as well.

[cate]

I don't use the Underhill Road junction. It is too scary.

[kford]

DJKQ is correct. Ignore those impatient drivers behind you. Let them have the heart attack while you cross safely in your own time.

[TimGuitar]

Visibility is the main problem, surely the council could extend the double yellow lines on Barry Road without too much expense.

[Mellors]

I do ignore them, but its SO stressful, and I bet loads of people just get bored of waiting eventually and go for it.

[James Barber]

I'm meeting council officers and local Police this Friday afternoon. I'll report back what was discussed the options cosndiered and what appears the way forward.

[James Barber]

I met local Police and council officers about this junction. Many thanks to them.

Reviewing the crash data council officers explained that they only receive details where personal injuries are concerned. Local Police don't have access to crash data - just incident reports for the last 6 months they have to trawl through manually ie. every crime. Clearly no intention for local Police to help council officers on a local level.

Anyway, we compared the Underhill junction with Upland Road junction with Barry Road. The former has now had 10 personal injury crashes in the last 3 years. The latter zero on the junction and 1 on the adjacent Pelican crossing.

The sightlines from the eastern side of Underhill looked fine. Those from the western arm appear the problem.

We thought that the Underhill Road junction road marking had nearly completely gone.

Near immediately - officers will be arranging for the road markings to be completely renewed.

Short term - when the next Traffic Management Order in Dulwich is raised (we're due one in the next month or two) that they include changing the Give Way signs to STOP signs - as Upland Road junction has.

Medium term - build a raised entry treatment on the western side of Underhill Raod with potentially more kerb build out on the sw side of Barry Road to increase sightlines - as Upland Road junction has.

Each of these measures should make it clearer it's a junction and attempt to get drivers to take more care.

Other thoughts explored were mini roundabout, raised junction, lots of double yellow lines, average speed cameras, speed activated signs. Various reasons they didn't seem suitable. Have to 'talk' those through with anyone by email.

[kford]

Stop signs aren't used enough in the UK - in the US they're used effectively everywhere. And enforced.

Double-yellows would help too though, but more kerb is a good solution.

[TJ]

sounds like a reasonable solution.

[James Barber]

The road marking renewals were completed some time ago. Council officers have slgihtly rearranged projects so that during March the agreed entry treatment will be installed as per attached.

We also agreed that the eatern arm would ideally have the Give Way sign replaced with a STOP sign. Apparently the junction doesn't absolutely meet the criteria set by the Secretary of State at the National Department of Transport. Officers have agreed to aplly for it and copy me so hopefully we can together try and make that happen as well.

Any thoughts please let me know.

[tiddles]

looks like a real bottle neck on the south part where underhill meets barry? the pavement has been widened - this is going to cause problems if the p13 is there and cars coming down barry will not be able to turn left or cars wanting to cross barry will not be able nip across safely (stuck across barry - yikes).

maybe I am not reading the plans correctly and the scale is fine?

[kford]

Shame about the STOP sign. I really do think they make you pay extra attention at a junction. And those sight lines look like they'll still be too short, even with the extra kerbage.

[Penguin68]

I would guess that by making Underhill more difficult to get in to and exit (despite the fact that its a significant route, including for buses) this will help speed the traffic on Barry (always a good thing, far too few of our accidents are fatal, if you ask me) whilst making 'clearing' cars into and out of Underhill longer, more difficult, thus increasing the chances of impact. Luckily the only people able to afford to drive shortly will be Tories, so this enforced cull should ensure a LibLab dominance in the local elections. Or am I reading the plan wrongly?

The major basis for much of the complaint in this thread has been the speed of cars along Barry and the problems of visibility and access into and out of Underhill. I cannot see how this does anything but exacerbate this situation.

[EDOliver]

The major basis for much of the complaint in this thread has been the speed of cars along Barry and the problems of visibility and access into and out of Underhill. I cannot see how this does anything but exacerbate this situation.

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I completely agree with the above. In my opinion there is no issue with cars stopping at the end of underhill/Whately, it's clear you have to give way, but the fact that it's a nightmare pulling out once you are there. The above plans are all nice and shiney and I'm sure the end of Underhill/Whately will look lovely but it simply won't change anything. Cars will still drive far too fast along Barry and sadly accidents will continue.