Bad 2 Dog Owner Brenchley Gardens (killed fox in private garden)

[stringvest]

Yesterday afternoon 3pm, Heard commotion, thought fox den maybe feeding time couldn't see much at time. 10 past 3 still going on but sounded very yappy and screechy I was concerned and further invesigated. It was in my friends neighbours garden at Marmora Rd. From the top window there were two small dogs viciously attacking a fox. I knocked to try and get in their garden but couldn't. As I left that house the home owner approached, so I told him. He went in his garden, but they were now over the fence in "our" garden still ferociously attacking the fox. I tried to shoo them off, clapping, shouting and pushing them with my foot, but they were going for my feet and the fox. As soon as I got one away by its collar, the other one continued and this fiasco continued for a few minutes with them both sort of taking turns. I was shouting to the owner "come and get your dogs" "help, come and get your dogs" Eventually a lady appeared at the top end of the garden (the wild overgrown bit) she said, she CANNOT HELP, HER 12 WEEK OLD BABY IS IN A PRAM. I said I don't care, your dogs are killing a fox and out of control attacking me too. She said she cannot help her baby is in its pram?. She was calling the dogs, and eventually one gave up and followed the other to the owner and they disappeared. The attacked lasted a good half hour.

I was left with the fox, it was bleeding from its bottom, all of its legs, its ears, the left hand side of its face was ripped off, its front canines were hanging out bleeding. I called the RSPCA and sat with the fox whimpering for nearly 2 hours. It tried to move but couldn't get far its front legs were very damaged.

I don't know if it can be saved or will be euthanised.

THE LADY WAS ABOUT 30, SHE HAS 12 WEEK OLD BABY, AN ACCENT SPANISHY MAYBE? THE DOGS: one brown fat sausage type with a face like a staff ? not a proper daschund like a squared one? The other a terrier type with different colours, but hard to see in the commotion. THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN ON LEADS.

[KidKruger]

Was the fox killed or not ?

What is this thread intended for ?

[Delainie]

That must have been a horrible thing to witness, and typical, an animal suffering and needing to be put to sleep and wonderful rspca take 2 hours. If the dogs do that to a fox, they more than likely will, if not already, do this to cats. A dog can be of lead if under control, these obviously wasn't. Wonder how safe her baby is with dogs that behave and are allowed to behave like that. I would keep an eye out to see if she is local and find out where she lives, then get back to useless RSPCA, I would also report to police as they did attack you too. Anyhow dogs of leads on streets, I don't agree with, just laziness on the owners part and an excuse to let their dogs crap and owners carry on walking pretending they didn't know, so not to pick it up. I have a dog, when on street, always on lead, and always pick poo,and most certainly wouldn't attack foxes or cats. Blame the owners.

[Passiflora]

How terrible for you and so sad for the fox. He probably had to be put down I would think with those injuries.

[Mystic Mog]

Well done for trying to help the poor fox, probably been put to sleep judging by the horrific injuries. Very sad that such a thing should be allowed by this person. Hope you are recovering from the trauma.

[tomskip]

How awful that there was such a wait for the fox to be put down. Obviously the most concerning thing is that there is a baby sharing a household with such vicious dogs.

[Zelig]

Well done for doing your best to prevent unnecessary pain and suffering of the fox. Report the out of control dogs to the council/police as this can happen again in a park or other public space with these dogs attacking. Also you were attacked yourself by the dogs and this should be reported.

[civilservant]

Thank you for doing what you could.

this is unfortunate, not just for that poor fox, but also for those dogs, that have been allowed to run out of control.

[stringvest]

Thank you everyone. It was awful. I have photos of the fox on my phone. I couldn't take photos of the dogs, I was too busy trying to help the fox.

KidKruger: the point of the post was to warn other residents and locals that might use Brenchley Gardens or even Peckham Rye of these nuisance dogs and the damage they could do to a small pet, the fox was bigger than each of them but didn't have a hope. Someone's friendly terrier, cat or toddler maybe, would be in danger.

I was worried as foxes are quite dog-like, so perhaps these ones are not friendly to other dogs? I really don't understand it at all. I have kept several dogs in the past, an Afghan, Border Collies and mongrels, they were all taken to puppy classes, trained to "leave" and come when called, and only set loose in dog exercise pens or designated areas, they were socialised with other dogs, cats and a pet rabbit, none of them would hurt a fly.

THESE TWO DOGS WENT AT IT FOR APPROX HALF AN HOUR LIKE TWO LITTLE PITBULLS. THE OWNER COULDN'T CONTROL THEM OR RETRIEVE THEM, THEY ARE NOT TRAINED PROPERLY OR SOCIALISED ... I HOPE SOMEONE KNOWS HER. I will speak to the council.

[KidKruger]

Thanks for clarifying SV. Sounds unsettling to witness what happened.

Although nasty to witness, some of the comments from posters above are naive or generalistic regarding how dogs 'should' behave towards foxes. What I mean is that the 'should' comments seem to stem from personal taste and don't account for or acknowledge the inherent behaviours towards foxes of some breeds.

We'd all prefer to not see a fox being torn-up by terriers, obviously. But to expect 'dogs' (as a catch-all) to not chase foxes (or cats) comes across a little 'City' to me and expects too much from all of our 4-legged canine friends.

Cats also "shouldn't" chase mice and birds fish garden ponds ?

Training will get you so far, but I think once specific breeds have contact with a recognised prey then something ingrained kicks-in. One could argue therefore that some breeds that should not be allowed, breeds that under all other circumstances are usually no concern in a public situation (I'll use Jack Russells as an example, however there will always be exceptions - so pls spare me), but that's not down to owners and to label a dog following instinct as 'out of control' is surely innacurate and lazy. However distasteful the outcomes of various different animals being thrown together, through no fault of their own, due to the way humans operate, there will inevitably be instances where conflict occurs - to expect this never to happen and apportion blame to justify that view just seems unrealistic.

I'm not diminishing how upsetting it must be to see this activity, but I am surprised that people seriously expect this to never happen in a population where dogs are very popular, in a City location literally crawling with foxes.

Regarding lady with pram / baby - which of the posters above believes she should have left the child alone while she went climbing through gardens to try and retrieve her dogs from the fight ?

Balance needed.

[JohnL]

Dogs attacking a fox - that's ingrained - but if they attack a human (as was suggested by the OP) things change.

[stringvest]

KidKruger: Thank you I totally understand and respect what you are saying about instincts etc. That's why we domesticated them in the first place, most ships would have a cat etc... I know of jack russells used to rat catch, because its humaner than poison and traps. I have spent some time in the countryside also and know that we can get a bit detached from the reality and be sentimental over wildlife and animals. However, this was not nature taking its course, or farming practice, or vermin control. It was unnecessary suffering (which is illegal under the wildlife act of 1981) and endangerment to myself caused by a stupid human for no logical reason.

Perhaps she should separate dog walks from baby walks so that she can give situations that may arise the attention they need?

As you enter Bremchley Gardens there is a big sign saying dogs must be kept on leads. I am not suggesting either that she should leave her baby to retrieve her dogs? I expect her dogs may need treatment too. There are bad owners and she is one of them, otherwise her dogs would be on leads and obedient and none of it would have happened. I should have left my friends house and been home by 3.30 - instead I missed an appointment and didn't get indoors till 7pm. Only being winter saved my own ankles and feet as I had thick jeans and boots on! Apart from the distress of it all.

My Afghan was a breed historically used for hunting, but never showed any instinct for it, he was walked on an extendable lead, and for a run taken to a dog enclosure to make sure he was retrievable. My border collie was quite pesty in always wanting a task and exercise, which he got responsibly. These little dogs could easily get enough run about time in a small garden, and would easily slip through railings into the road (unlike a larger breed), which is whey they especially should be on leads,

(Many accidents are caused by dogs off leads, I had one at peckham rye near the school, I mounted the pavement to avoid a bus, that was avoiding a small white terrier that actually went under the bus and was caught by a wheel. THE BUS DROVE OFF I was again left with an sick animal and a damaged car, I looked for the owners with no success, I took it to Lomas, it was badly bruised, but not even micro-chipped. I went back to Peckham Rye and put lots of posters up saying I had found the dog, but it was not claimed and went to the pound in sevenoaks where it was re-homed).

So that was another day or two ruined due to lack of a lead! My car needed a front spoiler! grrrr

[Delainie]

Agree with you string vest, dogs should have been on a lead, anyone who thinks this is acceptable behaviour from the dogs and dog owners are wrong in my view. She has a twelve week old body for gods sake, how safe is it going to be when it's wriggling about in front of these dogs, I don't care what anyone says about nature for certain breeds to chase and attack, any dog can be trained it's sheer laziness on owners behalf or it just makes the dog owners feel big to have a dog that kills. I witnessed two dogs years ago in dulwich park, ripping a squirrel apart right near the children's playground, but that's ok, let the children witness this, whilst the owner stood there encouraging his dogs, I will never forget a little girl screaming hysterically, but hey ho its nature!

[civilservant]

all my dogs have been terriers with well-developed prey instincts. they have chased squirrels, mice and rats and, when i lived outside London some years ago, my dog was known to chase cats up trees and kill rats.

however a sustained vicious attack of the kind that stringvest reports, of a dog against a fox, is out of the ordinary even for dogs with strong prey instincts. It is far from ingrained - dogs that are used for hunting need to learn how to attack and often have to be trained up specially.

these dogs have killed a fox. no-one to my knowledge has reported anything like that in the life of this forum.

This indicates exactly how abnormal this behaviour is and what a risk these dogs pose to other creatures around

[EPB]

The OP said "It was in my friend's neighbour's garden.."

Which made me wonder why, as suggested by some people, the dogs should have been kept on leads. There's a possibility, surely, that the dogs reacted to an invasion of their territory, and the fox's failure to run away was interpreted as an aggressive act.

[jaywalker]

EPB must be right. It is true also of cats. Both my own and my neighbour's often escort foxes out of their territory in no uncertain terms (unless it is a very big fox the fox knows it could be seriously injured). Problem may be that some foxes are losing sense of who is friend/enemy (I admit I feed them if asked to by them).

[Delainie]

From how I read it, the dogs do not live in any of the two gardens they were in ,attacking the fox, so they could not have been protecting their territory , they were out in public , off lead that's how they managed to get into the gardens. Had they been under control this would not have happened.

[Phlox]

Where did the dogs come from? The park?

[jaywalker]

OP suggests dogs were from next door, no?

[KidKruger]

Sorry stringvest:

"It is far from ingrained - dogs that are used for hunting need to learn how to attack and often have to be trained up specially"

No. Many dogs will go for a fox without ANY training, same goes also go for rabbits, cats, squirrels. Some will not know what to do when they corner/catch it, others will just attack (in the same way they know how to fight other dogs WITHOUT being trained), others will get attacked themselves for their efforts and will retreat or fight back.

"no-one to my knowledge has reported anything like that in the life of this forum.

This indicates exactly how abnormal this behaviour is and what a risk these dogs pose to other creatures around".

No. Gross assumption, the forum isn't the benchmark for what's happening in the area - how can you seriously posture that one !? Somethings get on the forum some don't, but your proposition is too black/white to be realistic.

Delainie:

"I don't care what anyone says about nature for certain breeds to chase and attack, any dog can be trained it's sheer laziness on owners behalf or it just makes the dog owners feel big to have a dog that kills."

No. You clearly do not have first-hand knowledge regarding what you're suggesting around training of dogs and their instinct., Your position is just phrased to meet your personal preferences and not based on reality I'm afraid.

You're clearly making massive assumptions. Whippets and many other breeds have the instinct, training may prevent or it may not, but to claim an owner would feel big if their dog attacked ANY other animal is as lazy a statement as the 'lazy' owners to whom you assign such blame in your post, above.

Utter drivel.

The posts I'm seeing are so ill-informed, generalistic and frankly cringeworthy that I'm just thankful it's not a thread about another culture. Where DO you get these 'facts' from ? A fortune cookie ?!

[Delainie]

So Kidkruger, you are right and all who disagree are wrong. Where do you get your information from? Are you a dog expert? Don't mean to be rude ,however are you telling me that there aren't people who get pleasure out of their dogs attacking other animals? Doesn't dog fighting exist then, is this just a myth. Everyone is entitled to their view, you have yours, I have mine, lazy irresponsible people walking around with their dogs off lead is a pain in the butt, especially for people walking their dog on lead with off lead dogs running up and causing a nuisance and I believe all dogs can be re trained, including greyhounds and whippets to not catch and kill wildlife or people's cats ,Just really depends on how good a dog trainer you are. We are the pack leader, therefore our dogs respect us, if we treat them right, they are intelligent and enjoy being trained. I've had a conversation with someone in the park who was boasting about how good his dog was at catching and killing squirrels, and yes he had small man syndrome, and was so proud his dog kills squirrels. You must live in a different world to me. Defending lazy irresponsible dog owners , not my style thanks Kidkruger.

[KidKruger]

I'm not defending anyone, I'm clearly calling out gross and ill-informed assumptions, so patently innacurate that they are crying out for correction. I am not saying anyone who disagrees with me is wrong but a different opinion doesn't automatically make someone right.

Well the 'bloke in the park' seems to be your point of reference ?

Good luck with that, I'm bailing as there's no rational conversation to be had here !

[Huggers]

My dog would always try to chase a fox if given the chance. Part of the point of him being on a lead in the street is to protect him from his own instinct- so he doesn't forget his common sense and rush into a road in pursuit- because instinct would definitely take over. Foxes seem exciting things to chase- He definitely doesn't think they are dogs. He has chased many foxes in Nunhead Cemetery but they are much too fast for him and have secret places to hide.

[civilservant]

>Sorry stringvest:

> "It is far from ingrained - dogs that are used for hunting need to learn how to attack and often have to be trained up specially"

that wasn't stringvest, that was me.

this post was started by stringvest to warn about some dangerous dogs.

sringvest showed an admirable level of compassion, and I am sure you kk would do likewise in the same circs

going back to basics - this post was about unacceptable behaviour by dogs and their owners

if that behaviour was routine, the forum would flag it - this is the forum which sees every fresh dog turd on the pavement as news to be flagged

I do not for a moment disagree that dogs'll chase anything that runs away (including children and adults) but to attack and continue to attack to the kill - that is very unusual and is either learned behaviour, or a sick dog

[nununoolio]

Just checked and it is not an offence under the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 if your dog attacks and kills/injures a fox (or squirrel). That is for certain protected species. It is an offence to allow your dog to be dangerously out of control on private or public land https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiTgZW1oonSAhXHLMAKHb0lBQQQFgglMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gov.uk%2Fcontrol-dog-public%2Foverview&usg=AFQjCNGMPFs21rxEgI1qlp2wGm48loQ6Ug, but the actual legislation is not displayed on the government website.

Southwark are currently looking into implementing a borough wide public spaces protection order, which will enable officers, amongst a whole host of other offences, to enforce against dog fouling, dogs off lead in designated areas, control of dogs in certain areas and the number of dogs a person is allowed to walk at any given time.

I have worked in parks for over ten years and can testify that a worryingly large number of dog owners/walkers haven't the faintest idea of how to control the animals in their charge. I look forward to the legislation being implemented and enforced at the earliest possible opportunity.