Dulwich MP Helen Hayes votes against the Brexit Bill

[i*Rate]

Helen Hayes - typical 'new' labour, white middle class MP; she knows best for the people of the UK - we should stay in Europe because of all those wonderful holidays in France and Europe that 'we' love so much (yes - I have met her).

The majority of people in this country voted to leave the European union, so she should respect that. We live in a little cosy part of Britain, not like the other areas of the country with no jobs, terrible housing and many poor European people over here seeking a better life which we do not have the capacity to provide for them.

I voted to stay, by the way, but I respect democracy.

Cheers everyone.

[Beej]

-- moved topic --

[Administrator]

Moved to the Lounge as it's just another EU referendum thread and it's not East Dulwich specific.

[BrandNewGuy]

Jenny1 Wrote:

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> And BrandNewGuy do you really think that stating

> your beliefs, in a context where it's not proven

> that they will have an impact on the world at

> large, is self indulgent and worthy of censure?

No, I said it is the specific instance of stating a position in order to be seen as 'right' within one's circle of friends. It happens all the time in social media. I didn't say it happened in this thread, but it remains a useful phrase for a specific phenomenon.

[rendelharris]

i*Rate Wrote:

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> Helen Hayes - typical 'new' labour, white middle

> class MP; she knows best for the people of the UK

> - we should stay in Europe because of all those

> wonderful holidays in France and Europe that 'we'

> love so much (yes - I have met her).

>

> The majority of people in this country voted to

> leave the European union, so she should respect

> that. We live in a little cosy part of Britain,

> not like the other areas of the country with no

> jobs, terrible housing and many poor European

> people over here seeking a better life which we do

> not have the capacity to provide for them.

>

> I voted to stay, by the way, but I respect

> democracy.

What has her skin colour got to do with it, or indeed her class? Black working class M.P. David Lammy also voted against Article 50. As for your assertion that she voted because she wants to keep European holidays, it's so far beneath contempt it's not worth commenting on.

As for your respect for democracy, if you really respected democracy you would recognise that the referendum was in no way binding on Parliament, as was made abundantly clear in the bill establishing it. You would also accept that in our parliamentary democracy an M.P. has the right to vote in any way she or he sees fit - in this case, of course, Ms.Hayes has voted in a way which reflects the choice of the majority of her constituents.

[Jenny1]

OK. I see BrandNewGuy. So that would mean someone saying something they don't actually believe, just to be approved of by their friends?

[Zebedee Tring]

The 2015 Tory manifesto not only promised an EU referendum by 2017, it also contained the words "We are clear about what we want from Europe. We say: yes to the Single Market ...". So much for "respecting democracy"!

[uncleglen]

Actually Jenny1, some people will say something they don't actually believe to stay in with their friends, and even their families, because they will weigh up the pros and cons of the friendship, blood ties etc.

[Jenny1]

But I wouldn't call that 'virtue signalling', would you uncleglen?

[Otta]

When your party is headed up by a total muppet, that commands very little respect from the majority of his MPs, then defying the three line whip, and the party line is not really difficult. Especially when a couple of the whips came out before the vote and said they may well defy themselves.

Labour Party is a complete and utter joke at the moment. It's depressing, and I am going from disagreeing with, to almost hating Corbyn's supporters now, because they have no idea the damage they are doing by effectively ensuring this government a free ride.

[????]

she could have just got a *migraine* like the deeply principled Abbot

[Zebedee Tring]

There are pictures of Abbott in the pub with colleagues and other Labour MPs the night before missing Brexit vote because of her "migraine". She then gave an animated speech in Westminster Hall just before heading home at 5pm complaining of the migraine. However, at 6pm she was apparently well enough tweet about her column in the Morning Star.

In the meantime Labour MPs who were suffering from cancer obeyed the three line whip to vote in favour of triggering Article 50.

Arguably if Abbott had been on the premises in her office, she could have been ?nodded through?, a point which other Labour MPs have made.

This is the same "principled" politician who criticised both Tony Blair and Harriet Harman over their choice of state schools for children before it was revealed that she was sending her son to the private City of London school.

[????]

Have you no irony detector at all ZT?

[stringvest]

I voted to leave and hope we do. I won't thank anyone for opposing the whip - we had our vote to stay or leave and leave won. When my dad voted to join the EU in the '70s what he voted was a trading block, not a federal state created by continually signing away of our sovereignty with various treaties and no say in it for us by consecutive governments. I don't want to be in a super-state of Europe with all its connotations. Being in Europe isn't that great!

If remain had won, would all the leavers be kicking up such a fuss and saying its not fair? Do it again? Best of 3 .. STUPIDITY.

The other thing that annoys me is all the people who have deserted these shores for "a better life elsewhere" even having a say in it and moaning about the result, they only care about themselves and not Britain why should they?. They don't live here with the consequences of uncontrolled migration, strained NHS, overcrowded schools .... well they possibly will when they come back in old age as many seem to for social care and hospital.

[Zebedee Tring]

Of course I have an irony detector,????. I knew damn well that you were being ironic about Abbott's "migraine". I can't stand her, hence my mini rant about her.

[????]

Oh Ok, Fair enough I was worried you thought I was a fan :)

[rendelharris]

stringvest Wrote:

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>

> If remain had won, would all the leavers be

> kicking up such a fuss and saying its not fair? Do

> it again? Best of 3 .. STUPIDITY.

Yes. Nigel Farage, pre-referendum: "In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way."

[jaywalker]

If "virtue signalling" means anything - which I think it does - then it is a pity to use it so loosely.

When I was five or six I gave in to the proto-fascist inside my head. The teacher asked who in the class had done something, and I knew. So I put up my hand to tell her. In retrospect, I wonder if teachers should think more carefully about this kind of appeal. I am glad to say that the proto-fascist then wrestled with the angel (where do they come from?) and I burst in to tears before I could reveal the identity of the 'culprit'. So much so that I was taken to be the culprit :-(.

I fear some are abandoned by angels - I was exceptionally lucky.

[stringvest]

I have a PM from JoeLegg saying Im a stupid idiot. How lovely, bit creepy.

[stringvest]

I am a bit annoyed now. I wasn't just an idiot, but a stupid, stupid one. Why not abuse people with a differing in public instead of behind everyones back?

[Seabag]

stringvest Wrote:

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> I am a bit annoyed now. I wasn't just an idiot,

> but a stupid, stupid one. Why not abuse people

> with a differing in public instead of behind

> everyones back?

Repost option available

[BrandNewGuy]

Jenny1 Wrote:

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> OK. I see BrandNewGuy. So that would mean someone

> saying something they don't actually believe, just

> to be approved of by their friends?

Not necessarily. I saw posts on Facebook for instance with, "Standing with native Americans protesting the Dakota pipeline." It's a toss-up whether that counts as someone's belief, but when it's someone from London just reposting stuff to their friends and doing nothing else about it*, that's virtue signalling. If I said, "I believe in helping people in trouble" and didn't actually ever do so, then what's the status of my 'belief'?

* I did ask one particular person about what they'd done and they hadn't even gone as far as signing a petition.

[Jenny1]

But surely BrandNewGuy, unless you know the person well, you wouldn't be able to make the judgement.

If a friend or relative who was assiduous in looking after sick family members, or volunteering, or any other act of charity, posted a message supportive of native Americans then it wouldn't count as 'virtue signalling' by your definition.

If a stranger posts such a message, how can one possibly know if they're a generally helpful member of society or not? And thus how can you possibly define what they're doing as 'virtue signalling'?

- I'm editing to apologise for sounding so adamant. But I do feel strongly about this issue. I worry, as others have noted, that many people use the phrase 'virtue signalling' to dismiss any deeply felt, positive opinion - and thus shut down debate. I don't mean to imply that you would fall into that category BrandNewGuy.

[uncleglen]

Well done stringvest for exposing the private message and for voting Leave.

[JoeLeg]

Ok, I'll say it publically then.

Stringvest, I think you're a stupid idiot who doesn't see the long term damage that may happen to us. Enjoy the NHS while it last, May is about to sell it to the Americans. I've got no problems telling people that - Lord knows anyone who voted Remain has spent months being berated and attacked. I've tried to debate, I've accepted the result, I know what's going to happen, and I'm even open to the possibility that this might, somehow, turn out okay.

But still I'm told, constantly, that my opinion counts for nothing, that if I question even a little bit, if I points out potential pitfalls or in anyway criticise the Brexit process then I'm an enemy of the people, an enemy of democracy, I'm trying to obstruct is leaving.

I'm doing nothing of the sort! I live in a democracy and I voted Remain and I accept the result because that's part of the price I pay for living in a democracy. But I am still allowed to have my view, I'm allowed to say it, and if I think someone is a stupid idiot then I can tell them. And they can respond to me and that's allowed too!

So yes, I called you an idiot. I did it privately, but I don't care if you feel the need to share it. I stand by my opinion. As are, I might point out, Members of Parliament who represent the constituents. As I said to you in the PM, Remain- supporting MP's from Leave constituencies have respected the will of their supporters - why is that ok but not the other way around? Hypocrisy of the highest order.

There are tremendous dangers ahead in the exit process, huge potential pitfalls await us and I have no faith in anyone currently in politics is able to guide us through what a narrow majority just committed everyone to.

Uncle Glen? You're just a coward, happy to drop in on threads and tell people you disagree with that they're stupid and out of touch, but you've never once actually engaged in a discussion. You just make your repetitive point and the bugger off again. I'll care about what you think the day you actually involve yourself in some kind of debate rather than trolling from the sidelines.