A general thread to discuss Trump

[KidKruger]

not sure what you're referring to Keano - but if you mean the comments about "let's hope there's charges", etc. it's simply a case of identify & find the people who broke in / vandalised / trespassed / committed insurrection etc., charge them accordingly, and prosecute.

Isn't that how the US legal system works ?!

Not sure what you are saying, did somebody say innocent people should be prosecuted too, or did you think someone wants all people prosecuted whether they were at the Capitol or not ? I don't understand.

[KidKruger]

Keano - so what's with the proposition below, didn't see a reply from you before ?

Are you saying that is the case or were you just posting it for a laugh ?

I am not sure how to validate your claim.

keano77 Wrote:

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> Fair point KK.

>

> How about

>

> Nancy Pelosi is just as guilty as Trump for what

> happened on Capitol Hill

>

> Discuss

[keano77]

I?m just making a general point and as you say identify and prosecute and let the juries decide on the facts.

There?s a lot of hysteria in the media, US media in particular, fanned by Miss Pelosi with words like coup, sedition and insurrection flying around like confetti.

Time for cool heads to prevail.

[KidKruger]

This is Freaky !

"

Some among America's military allies believe Trump deliberately attempted a coup and may have had help from federal law-enforcement officials

- Multiple European security officials told Insider that President Donald Trump appeared to have tacit support among US federal agencies responsible for securing the Capitol complex in Wednesday's coup attempt.

- Insider is reporting this information because it illustrates the serious repercussions of Wednesday's events: Even if they are mistaken, some among America's international military allies are now willing to give credence to the idea that Trump deliberately tried to violently overturn an election and had help from some federal law-enforcement agents.

- "We train alongside the US federal law enforcement to handle these very matters, and it's obvious that large parts of any successful plan were just ignored," one source told us.

"

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-attempted-coup-federal-law-enforcement-capitol-police-2021-1?r=US&IR=T?utm_source=copy-link&utm_medium=referral&utm_content=topbar

[diable rouge]

KidKruger Wrote:

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> thing is, its' great tracing all the rioters, but

> unless they get heavy sentences it's just a

> pretence. From what I've seen they've re being

> charged with trespass and other related things, as

> opposed to sedition (10yrs max), or conspiracy

> (20yrs max). These last two should be the charges,

> with max sentences for all - after all what's

> worst example of being unauthorised on Govt

> property ? Breaking into the Capitol, surely.

It's not uncommon to charge someone with a basic offence, and then after further investigation, more serious charges are added. Because of the numbers involved I think this is the best strategy, get as many as they can on a charge and in the system...

[KidKruger]

Yeah I guess so, identify the culprits, get them on the hook, then do the extra person-specific investigations. Fair approach.

That thing with Parler should help - though I dunno if US Govt can use hacked information. Shame if they can't cos that seemed to nail a LOT of people !

[Blah Blah]

There was no doubt around the guy that took the speaker's podium. He was photographed carrying it in the Capitol Building and he put it on Ebay. He is a carpenter by trade apparently. Clearly valued the cut of the woodwork lol

Just to add though, I am sure that most of the people who entered the building really didn't think they were breaking the law or would be rounded up and charged afterwards. The people who killed a Police Officer with a fire extinguisher, probably didn't march up there intending to murder a Police Officer, or those who seriously crushed another. I am sure the woman who was shot dead didn't think she was going to die trying to get into the main chamber. It is the disconnect from any idea of consequence for those however many minutes or hours of madness, that is hard understand.

It reminds me of when people rioted and looted for days after the shooting of Mark Duggan. Hundreds were traced and charged and mostly made examples of. I suspect the same will be true here.

[keano77]

Posted by Blah Blah Today, 12:22AM

...There was no doubt around the guy that took the speaker's podium. He was photographed carrying it in the Capitol Building and he put it on Ebay. He is a carpenter by trade apparently. Clearly valued the cut of the woodwork lol...

I understand there is doubt whether he actually stole the lectern. He is supposed to have denied he took it out of the building on CNN but I can?t view the interview for geographic reasons.

The following is interesting

https://www.ibtimes.sg/was-nancy-pelosis-podium-listed-ebay-after-being-stolen-capitol-54737

...It is also possible that the listing and sale of the object was made as a joke. The image of the lectern used in the listing was a Getty Images photo from Sept. 24, 2019, when Pelosi announced the formal impeachment inquiry of President Donald Trump. So, while it appears that the listing of the lectern was genuine, it is unclear whether the actual congressional item was sold, or if it had ever left the Capitol building to begin with...

Moral of the story is things are not always as they seem.

[TheCat]

There does need to be some cooler heads indeed Keano.

I think some of the media (and social media warriors) immediately using words like 'coup' are a little premature to say the least....on the surface this seems like riled up protesters, who's protest got out of hand, and became a riot. Not an attempted coup (unless evidence somehow implicates law enforcement as an link above suggests).

Again, on face value, if it was meant to be a coup...then it was the sh!ttest coup attempt in history......I mean the other side has national guard's, nuclear submarines and missile-laden drones.....but, sure, lets attempt a takeover of power with some MAGA hats and a few confederate flags.....

'Disgraceful'? Yes. 'Coup'?....hmmm, maybe not.....

[malumbu]

I think the dangers here are that we underestimate the popular movement going on in the US at the moment. I have it on good authority (I read it in a book) that there will be an attempt establish a quasi-Christian, totalitarian state, known as Gilead, in the NE states of the US. I've even found maps on line of the new territory, that's how far advanced things are.

[KidKruger]

So how does this make ?Nancy Pelosi just as guilty as Trump for what happened on Capitol Hill? ?

If Pelosi used words like that after the event how is she guilty ?

I don?t have a dog in this race, I?m just trying to make sense of your post.

You just posted that for a laugh, right? If not, please elaborate/retract.

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I?m just making a general point and as you say

> identify and prosecute and let the juries decide

> on the facts.

>

> There?s a lot of hysteria in the media, US media

> in particular, fanned by Miss Pelosi with words

> like coup, sedition and insurrection flying around

> like confetti.

>

> Time for cool heads to prevail.

[JohnL]

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I?m just making a general point and as you say

> identify and prosecute and let the juries decide

> on the facts.

>

> There?s a lot of hysteria in the media, US media

> in particular, fanned by Miss Pelosi with words

> like coup, sedition and insurrection flying around

> like confetti.

>

> Time for cool heads to prevail.

This Washington Post columnist and many others disagree

"They roamed the halls with zip ties hunting for Pence and congressional leaders. At a distance, they carried crosses. Close up, they built gallows and chanted death threats. At a distance, they carried ?thin blue line? banners. Close up, they savagely beat police officers who resisted them."

"This is the sad reality of our beleaguered democracy: If the United States does not punish sedition, we will see more of it."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-us-must-punish-sedition--or-risk-more-of-it/2021/01/11/97907746-5438-11eb-a931-5b162d0d033d_story.html

I see possible military tribunals especially for the ex-military among them who can apparently be recalled at any time and face military sanctions. Someone murdered that officer and people acting in concert act together.

[JohnL]

KidKruger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> So how does this make ?Nancy Pelosi just as guilty

> as Trump for what happened on Capitol Hill? ?

> If Pelosi used words like that after the event how

> is she guilty ?

> I don?t have a dog in this race, I?m just trying

> to make sense of your post.

> You just posted that for a laugh, right? If not,

> please elaborate/retract.

>

> keano77 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I?m just making a general point and as you say

> > identify and prosecute and let the juries

> decide

> > on the facts.

> >

> > There?s a lot of hysteria in the media, US

> media

> > in particular, fanned by Miss Pelosi with words

> > like coup, sedition and insurrection flying

> around

> > like confetti.

> >

> > Time for cool heads to prevail.

Pelosi isn't wrong.

[KidKruger]

TheCat Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> There does need to be some cooler heads indeed Keano.

My thinking is that at a time when we have possibly 10?s of million of pseudo-Trumps in America, many of which seem happy to see the tearing down of democratic structures, injury or death to legally voted political leaders, and attempts at stopping/overturning validated election results, there is a major problem over there.

When Trump goes, these people won?t. They were there before but now they have been legitimised by Trump.

They have been energised by their antics at the Capital.

They threaten death and injury publicly to people who have committed no crime, just because they have been told to.

So, dumbing this down as if it was just some kind of frat party which got out of hand, would be a grave mistake IMO.

Whether any items were sold or not on eBay, sort of misses the point. To prove that a lecturn did not get sold on eBay, would prove nothing useful, because the main story is above.

Is there really anything cool-headed about being an apologist for the people and their behaviours in the events at the Capitol last week?

[JohnL]

Anyway you couldn't ask for a more cool headed man then Biden.

I notice some are now saying he's a figurehead however.

[TheCat]

Cool Headed = Apologist for violent behavour????????

No. cool headed means, assess the fact, follow due process, prosecute where appropriate.

If people start getting trialed in the court of public opinion, with the broader public riled up by salicious and prejudcied words in the media, then is that really demonstrating a higher standard/moral compass than what started off the thugs, rioters and looters in the first place? Of course, don't apologize for them, but the majority should not use their disgraceful behavior to justify letting our principles slip in how a cool-headed democracy should react and deal with these sort of events.

[keano77]

There is a major problem over there KK and my point about Pelosi/the Democrats is that they are as guilty of fanning the flames over the division in America as Trump.

For example, this new attempt to impeach Trump will only add fuel to the fire. It?s vexatious, it is highly unlikely to succeed and the ulterior motive is to stop Trump ever running for President again.

More than 74 million people voted for Trump in the election, the most votes for a Republican candidate in history and the most votes for a losing presidential candidate I think I?m right in saying.

Trump is no angel but I?ve watched for the last 5 or 6 years where ?liberal? forces have done their best to not only undermine Trump at every stage but to try to destroy the man.

Biden (or perhaps Kamala) has a tough job ahead to bring the country together and there are plenty of rotten apples in the Democratic Party that need to be jettisoned.

[JohnL]

If the trial in the senate takes place after Trump has left office the objective will be to stop him ever holding office again

[TheCat]

I know that Spiked can exaggerate a little....but let's hope that this report isn't accurate with regards how Biden hopes to unite America.....

https://www.spiked-online.com/2021/01/11/joe-bidens-pork-barrel-identity-politics/

[JohnL]

This is Bidens (pre election) comments

https://www.npr.org/2020/07/28/896132054/biden-details-proposal-to-advance-racial-equity-in-america?t=1610455324391

So yes I think he does plan to target small businesses in those communities with extra money, but Spiked are putting one spin on it Biden will put another.

Note it's just one pillar of a plan.

Note2 that Trumps reply was "I've done more for Black Americans than anybody with the possible exception of Abraham Lincoln," so that helped a lot

[exdulwicher]

For example, this new attempt to impeach Trump will only add fuel to the fire. It?s vexatious, it is highly unlikely to succeed and the ulterior motive is to stop Trump ever running for President again.

If he's impeached he loses his Presidential Pension and lifetime Secret Service protection.

Again, on face value, if it was meant to be a coup...then it was the sh!ttest coup attempt in history......I mean the other side has national guard's, nuclear submarines and missile-laden drones.....but, sure, lets attempt a takeover of power with some MAGA hats and a few confederate flags.....

Coup doesn't always mean the military rolling into town and taking over. He's been laying the ground for this over the last 4 years, it was a self-coup. Been done often enough before although usually in countries with slightly more "flexible" morals...

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/01/11/capitol-riot-self-coup-trump-fiona-hill-457549

[KidKruger]

However many people voted for Trump does not legitimise him or what he stands for, nor their own beliefs.

Evil doesn?t become good, just because a number of people want it.

keano77 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> There is a major problem over there KK and my

> point about Pelosi/the Democrats is that they are

> as guilty of fanning the flames over the division

> in America as Trump.

>

> For example, this new attempt to impeach Trump

> will only add fuel to the fire. It?s vexatious, it

> is highly unlikely to succeed and the ulterior

> motive is to stop Trump ever running for President

> again.

>

> More than 74 million people voted for Trump in the

> election, the most votes for a Republican

> candidate in history and the most votes for a

> losing presidential candidate I think I?m right in

> saying.

>

> Trump is no angel but I?ve watched for the last 5

> or 6 years where ?liberal? forces have done their

> best to not only undermine Trump at every stage

> but to try to destroy the man.

>

> Biden (or perhaps Kamala) has a tough job ahead to

> bring the country together and there are plenty of

> rotten apples in the Democratic Party that need to

> be jettisoned.

[keano77]

...However many people voted for Trump does not legitimise him or what he stands for, nor their own beliefs.

Evil doesn?t become good, just because a number of people want it...

I?m not quite sure what your point is here KK and I?m sure you don?t mean to say he?s evil.

My point was his votes show a lot of support for him.

[KidKruger]

I do mean to say he is evil, if you know anything different please advise.

And what is the point of outlining that this guy had whatever many votes to show his support levels - we all know he?s popular. You seem to be legitimising him via the vote count ?

Fact is, there are tens of millions of little trumps in the USA, which is not a good thing. Unless you agree in keeping America white as can be.

[keano77]

Evil?

How silly