Traditional Chinese Medicine

[Huguenot]

To be fair, I don't think David had in mind Sanjeev Krishna and Plasmodium falciparum ATP6 when he made his observation. He would corrrectly consider this an exception rather than the norm. It's clearly the application of scientific method.

If the residents of ED are going to a TCM practitioner it's more likely to be a snake oil peddler offering twig tea who knows nothing about evidence, and draws most of his/her conclusions by holding their palm above your centre of gravity.

[karter]

BTW Hugue, my comment about thousands of people dieing/suffering from side-effects from allopathics was not intended to say that people should not take them, it was comparing it to the case that DC mentioned about ONE person suffering side-effects from a banned chinese herb.

[Huguenot]

Jesus may have healed, if he existed as people imagined him to have done. It's nevertheless unlikely. Many senior religious figures don't believe that the Bible should be interpreted literally.

I think even the most devoted of followers would still take their dear mum to a hospital rather than a church if she was caught up in a car crash, don't you?

Is this just a weird tactic to say "If you believe in God, go homepathic"? We could probably get you some car window stickers.

[Huguenot]

Sorry karter, cross-post. I get your point.

[david_carnell]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> COME ON DAVID!! Stop back-peddling and changing

> your argument! Do you still believe that Chinese

> herbal medicine is only a placebo, and will never

> contain an effective active ingredient?

No. I will admit that this was a rash and ill chosen opening remark. TCM products can sometimes contain an active ingredient. Placebo no doubt plays a part, but it does so in many other forms of medicine too.

I should have instead concentrated on the inherent dangers it presents, the ill founded logic upon which it is based, the unchecked results it produces, the unlicensed practitioners who espouse it and the vast superiority of western, EBM.

The mere presence of an active ingredient does not suddenly produce a medical system that should be trusted or relied upon. I am happy to admit that further investigation, using thorough scientific practices, into Chinese herbs may yield some positive results.

Huguenot also articulates my thoughts. Probably better than I can.

[karter]

Thanks Hugue, what are you doing up so late dude? Off to bed with you now and dont forget to pray.

[antijen]

http://www.lambethpct.nhs.uk/documents/845.pdf

Strange the NHS are funding TCM, as I said earlier, and have been for years.

I only took one course of chinese herbs (1 month) as I personaly like to understand and recognise what I am taking,

language to difficult and never had time to learn.

Roche (drug company) obtains shikimic acid from the Chinese star anise in its Tamiflu, a herb I have used for years as a

medicine.

link on biopiracy

http://www.herts.ac.uk/fms/documents/schools/law/HLJ_V1I2_Stenton.pdf

http://www1.american.edu/ted/turmeric.htm

When theres money to made its a very diffrent story emmerges.

[antijen]

Last 10yr history concerning regulation.

http://theherbarium.wordpress.com/2010/06/15/full-circle-%E2%80%93-the-story-of-herbalists-statutory-regulation-in-the-uk/

Where we are now.

http://theherbarium.wordpress.com/2010/06/15/full-circle-%E2%80%93-the-story-of-herbalists-statutory-regulation-in-the-uk/

[antijen]

http://www.thehealthierlife.co.uk/natural-health-articles/news-views/european-food-safety-authority-herbs-vitamins-97345.html

Easier reading, oh the complication of words.

[Huguenot]

I love the fact that herbalists are "unlikely to receive serious consideration by any UK government in the foreseeable future" because it is "largely or completely of unproven benefit and should be regulated in terms of consumer protection".

Most importantly it was blocked because "it failed to have the ?protection of the public as its primary concern?."

Says it all really doesn't it? I wonder what the primary concern of this crowd really is? ;-) Getting rich off stressed victims possibly?

[karter]

Be fair Hugue if you are going to copy and paste, don't be selective. Herbalists are not getting rich as you have stated. The cuts affect lots of different groups.

On 2 June 2010 a statement by the parliamentary under-secretary of state for health, Anne Milton, indicated that the coalition government was in no hurry to publish a report on the DH consultation 2009 or to reverse Andy Burnham?s stance on SR and the CNHC.12 Undoubtedly the EHTPA will once again engage in vigorous lobbying of the new Health Minister and encourage herbalists to do the same, but realistically SR for herbalists is unlikely to receive serious consideration by any UK government in the foreseeable future. In the current political context of drastic spending cuts, throwing money at SR for herbalists won?t be very high on the coalition government?s list of priorities.

After a decade of lobbying for state regulation and incurring substantial costs which have been borne by herbalists who can ill-afford them, what has the EHTPA delivered? Not the promised SSR or SR, but voluntary regulation (VR) ? something herbalists already have. Further, the EHTPA must also take some responsibility for the creation of a herbal medicine education bubble by accrediting an unsustainable number of university courses. Three of these (including The Scottish School of Herbal Medicine) have recently closed and more are very likely to follow, particularly as the previous government cut ?950 million from higher education spending. The EHTPA is supposedly dedicated to protecting and preserving the practice of herbal medicine from EU legislation, yet herbal medicine in the UK is more vulnerable than ever to the harmonisation policies of bureaucrats in Brussels. On a number of counts the EHPTA has failed to deliver.

edited to make easier reading.

[karter]

You play dirty Hugue, life in Singapore must be treating you well.B)

[Huguenot]

:)) just having a bit of fun. But I think the govt. made clear the lack of recognition for the herbalist movement was down to the fact that they didn't think it was appropriate that herbalism should be given an equivalency with EMB.

[Huguenot]

Anyway, bedtime now, you can have the floor unmolested ;-)

[Jeremy]

David - Thank you for clarifying.

I am actually surprised that more trials - and higher quality trials - have not been conducted.

I also find it absurd that somebody should be able to sell something as a medicine, without it being subjected to drug trials.

It is also concerning that many of these practitioners have very limited knowledge of western medicine, and will be unlikely to determine whether it is dangerous to combine what they are prescribing with any current medication.

Proper regulation of the drugs and the practitioners would protect consumers, and also help us to separate out the "woo" from the facts.

[antijen]

You are a scoundrel H, I wouldn't be surprised if you'r a secret valerian popper.

For people who do rely on herbs, where no scientific knowledge is available, will see restrictions on them.

Many people who do not have faith in orthodox treatment do not want to be regulated by organisations who have been shown time and time again to be corrupt.

[RosieH]

Has anyone else read Year of the Flood?

[Moos]

antijen Wrote:

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> You are a scoundrel H, I wouldn't be surprised if

> you'r a secret valerian popper.

>

Like another poster, I've been reading this debate with interest but haven't bothered to post as a lot of the alternative medicines cited seem so obviously nonsensical to me. But this accusation is a new low even for you, antijen.

> For people who do rely on herbs, where no

> scientific knowledge is available, will see

> restrictions on them.

What does this sentence actually mean?

[antijen]

It was in jest Moo, sorry no idea how to get these smile.

H Sorry if you seen this as anything but a joke.

Which of the alternative medicines do you find nonsensical, nothing you felt strong enough, I take it, if you cannot see restrictions (whether you agree or not) I doubt very much you will understand. If you are genuinely interested try reading

the links. If it is a misunderstanding with my grammer, yeah I get that.

Its been pointed out before, but its just not important to me.

I think it would be a good idea to remember not everyone spends lots of time on the computer.

[Moos]

Oh, a joke. Of course. Does that mean I can call you any name I like and then say it's a joke? Do advise.

But my snappishness aside for a moment, with regard to "For people who do rely on herbs, where no scientific knowledge is available, will see restrictions on them." mine was a genuine question. I really don't know what you meant and would like to understand.

As for the therapies I find nonsensical, I wouldn't want to have to provide an exhaustive list but for example any therapy that relies on the patients' willingness or ability to be healed, as someone put it earlier on this thread, I would regard as nonsense. That's not to belittle the placebo effect, but to give the credit for the healing (or the blame for the failure to heal) to the therapy rather than to the patient's mind is at best credible and at worst criminal.

[antijen]

Moos I only hope H has a better sense of humour.

No doubt without the scientific knowledge, (not long ago since NHS recognised the properties in St Johns Wort)you would have regarded this herb as nonsense. If these regulations go through, as I have said earlier, people who know the properties and actually want to have some responsibility for there health will see herbs being restricted because they have not been recognised.

[Moos]

I am sure he will have, don't worry. I'm almost tempted to ask whether you could prescribe something to help me out.

I specifically said that remedies based on the placebo effect are nonsense, but if you find it convenient to your argument to ascribe scepticism about herbal medicine to me, go ahead. I'm still not sure that I understand the point, though. Either the wicked establishment with all their boring insistence on scientific proof are ignoring the efficacy of herbs in spite of compelling anecdotal evidence, or they do believe that herbs do have effects on the body, and therefore restrict their uses. Which are we going with?

[antijen]

I'm saying it makes no difference to me at the moment because most herbs are not restricted, and I'm sure you would not

ask me for any help, although you may soon have a limited choice to help your ailment.

You say you want to understand, I explain and you say I am being argumentative.

I have also stated earlier I do not think the physical and mental can be seperated in illness.

[dulwich22]

It could be an allergy or asthma - I'd definitely go back to the doctor to get to the source of the problem if it is still persisting. Whatever it is though Acupuncture could very well be helpful in treating the symptoms. Acupuncture is recognised by the World Health Organisation and recommended by many western doctors to treat a variety of different conditions. Hilary Grandon is very good and practices at the Natural Family health Centre on Lordship Lane. She gives free telephone consultations so you could call her up for a chat. Her contact details are on her website which also has loads of info about acupuncture and how it can be used to treat various conditions. Check out http://www.acupuncturehil.co.uk

[peckhamboy]

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