Traditional Chinese Medicine

[HAL9000]

Yeah - a good placebo helps relieve the pain of Exploding Balls Syndrome, too.

[taper]

Antijen

That's one of the bizarre websites you've linked to. You also linked recently to a man associated with aids denialism in another discussions.

And now you commend What the Doctors Don't Tell You.

Let's have a look at it shall we:

http://www.wddty.com/

The first article is about MMR and the deaths of children. That sets the alarm bells ringing. Then a glance at the sidebar shows adverts for "Chi Machines" and Homepoathic "remedies", Lyymph Drainage. This is all looking a little bit woo.

But let's see who publishes the thing. It's husband and wife team Lynne McTaggart and Bryan Hubbard. Who hell they? Well, Bryan's a bit obscure. Seems he believes high levels of vitamin c are a good paliative for terminal cancer. And he's a pin up boy for JABs.

A quick search on McTaggart though shows she's rather famous. She wrote a book in 2007, the Intention Experiment". The review here http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/article1533982.ece describes McTaggart as "a crusader against the evils of modern medicine, such as vaccination and surgery". Oh dear and it suggests she's another one who questions the link between HIV and AIDS. She's also written something called the Vaccination Bible. Is she pro? Nope: the book describes itself as "an unabashed case against vaccination" and recommends homeopathy and herbalism as an alternative. She's a Wakefield groupie of course.

She's even been discussed by the saintly Ben Goldacre - here http://www.badscience.net/2006/02/the-great-tamiflu-vaccine-scare/. Seems she didn't quite get the basics right on Tamiflu. Perhaps because she has no medical qualifications whatsoever.

And by way of summary, here's a Times piece on Ms McTaggart worth reading, by Mark Henderson

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/article500204.ece

Key quote: "It [the website Antijen recommends you look at] claims to expose ?the truth about the dangers of modern medicine?. But a glance at its literature reveals a wealth of junk science and scaremongering."

So there you have it. All done in ten minutes on the internet. Ten minutes I'll never get back. But if it prevents any gullible people from beleiving anything they read on WDDTY then it's ten minutes well spent.

[The Minkey]

Meanwhile, a certain herb used in Chinese medecine has been proven to be effective against malaria: http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn4079-chinese-herb-reveals-vital-malaria-weakness.html

"Derived from the Chinese herb qinghao, or sweet wormwood (Artemisia annua), the extracts have already saved millions of patients in south-east Asia who would otherwise have suffered or died when conventional drugs failed."

And Neem, used extensively in Ayurvedic medicine, has been shown to have broad health applications:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/w098358005m2q087/

[david_carnell]

Minkey - that's a misleading statement. You're framing it as if you just take the herb as dished out by TCM practioners. That's simply not true.

Reading the article, medical doctors and researchers, through rigorous testing, have extracted certain enzymes.

To prove the enzyme was the key, Krishna's team isolated it by injecting the messenger RNA that codes for PfATP6 into eggs of the frog Xenopus laevis. By comparing the effects of artemisinins with a chemical known to block the enzyme's action, as well as with as drugs such as chloroquine, they were able to show that artemisinins block PfATPt both in the eggs and in intact malarial parasites.

That's hardly mystical Chinese herbalism. That's hardcore western science.

[Huguenot]

Not only that Minkey, but you seem to have a complete misunderstanding of what being "shown to have broad health applications" actually means.

In this case there have been a number of claims that have been made about Neem, but none have been substantiated or tested.

Not only that but in their own words: "But toxicological activities such as allergic, genotoxic, cytogenetic and radiosensitizing effects have also been reported in humans"

If you don't know what genotoxicity is, try this definition: "Genotoxicity describes a deleterious action on a cell's genetic material affecting its integrity. Genotoxic substances are known to be potentially mutagenic or carcinogenic, specifically those capable of causing genetic mutation and of contributing to the development of tumors. This includes both certain chemical compounds and certain types of radiation."

You should be running scared for the bloody hills if someone offers you something that might have that effect. You use this as justification for witch doctor heebie-jeebie? Crazy.

You can only discover the effects of Neem through a rigorous testing environment.

[Jeremy]

Absolutely, if you take something which hasn't been properly tested, it may have bad side effects, or maybe it just won't work at all. So there are obvious dangers.

Doesn't make it a placebo though, does it?

[annaj]

Ok, David, I'm going to have one last go at trying to get you to understand what I've been saying all along, because the malaria drug is a perfect example.

Ok, so, artemisia annua has been used in chinese medicine, sucessfully, for some time to treat malaria. Western scientists thought "well, now, that's interesting" and researched the herb to find the active ingredient and investigate its potential use. So, yes, western science, but science that wouldn't have happened if those scientists had dismissed all traditional herbal medicine as woo and not bothered to research it.

Just to spell it out: I am completely pro-vaccination and have never advocated alternative medicine over vaccination, as well you know. I have never suggested unregulated herbalists should be allowed to give what they want to who they want or make claims they can't substatiate. I have never supported reiki, homeopathy or any other nonsense based on nothing.

What I have said, and still say, is that chinese herbal remedies contain active ingredients and have a history of sucessful use that shouldn't be dismissed entirely.

[taper]

Annaj

I'm sure that's right. Genuinely complementary in certain instances.

[annaj]

Well, thanks for the metaphorical pat on the head, taper, but you've missed the point.

If a new treatment for malaria, one of the world's biggest killers and increasingly resistant to exisiting drugs, can be dervied form a herbal remedy, that's a bit more than complementary, don't you think?

Am I really the only person that sees a middle ground between "it's all woo" and "it's all true and miraculous"?

[RosieH]

No way sister.

[Bellenden Belle]

> Ok, so, artemisia annua has been used in chinese

> medicine, sucessfully, for some time to treat

> malaria. Western scientists thought "well, now,

> that's interesting" and researched the herb to

> find the active ingredient and investigate its

> potential use. So, yes, western science, but

> science that wouldn't have happened if those

> scientists had dismissed all traditional herbal

> medicine as woo and not bothered to research it.

You refer to 'scientists' and investigation and research. Which surely produces evidence-based medicine. Which is regulated. The issue isn't about dismissing the herbs and the active ingredients - but questioning the TCM industry, which goes unregulated and encourages self-diagnosis/ medication based on anecdotal evidence. They're two different issues aren't they?

[annaj]

Oh, come on, Belle.

This

Chinese medicine = utter nonsense Narnia. It's a placebo at best and harmful at worst. Don't waste your money.

sounds a lot like dismissing to me and not much like criticising the industry or calling for regulation.

Chinese medicine is harmful at worst, and I have said several times that there needs to be more regulation, but it's a lot more than placebo at best.

[david_carnell]

Anna....as a medical doctor, what would you recommend to Narnia - would you refer him to a TCM practioner? Or to his nearest GP and pharmacist?

Do you yourself take TCM products?

And if you talk really....slowly. In short sentences. I might. Just. Understand.

[Bellenden Belle]

Annaj - yes that sounds dismissive. But I think much of the frustration is aimed at those shops which set themselves up on the high street and offer solutions for every ailment going. And they come with the umbrella tag of "chinese medicine" as if somehow that is enough for people to put their faith in them. It isn't. For many people it will absolutely be a waste of money - and the placebo effect will kick in because they will feel they are at least trying and doing something.

[annaj]

As a medical doctor, having not seen and assessed him myself, I would be unable to make a diagnosis, so I'd advise he see his GP. Nothing that I've said on here has been directly related to Narnia's son and nothing I have said on here implies that anyone should rely on TCM as an alternative to western medicine. All I've said it that I don't think it should be dismissed as "utter nonsense" because it may have some use and validity.

No, I don't. Not that it's any of your business or relevant.

Please don't imply that I'm trying to patronise you. At no point have I said or implied that you don't or can't understand me, just that you seem to be choosing not to.

[annaj]

Belle, please just read my posts.

I haven't defended high street chalatans. I haven't recommended TCM. I haven't defended financial explotation of peoples' hopelessness for placebos.

I have said that TCM is different to other alternative therapies, because it involves active ingredients and I have tried to point out that evidence-based medicine is more complicated than western=science=good and eastern=woo=bad.

[david_carnell]

I would imagine it would be highly relevent, Anna. If you were actively, or had previously, imbibed any TCM rememedies you could use it as personal anecdote. Perhaps it worked for you. You could be forgiven for defending it.

But you're not. And never have. So it doesn't matter.

It's not that I'm choosing not to understand you - I just disagree with you. Vigorously.

And I'm not convinced by the idea that because TCM contains an active ingredient it shouldn't be dismissed as woo. I'm fully aware of the sources of western pharmaceuticals. Vast swathes are derived from natural flora. Some may come from China. Others come from all over the world....the Amazon being a particularly rich source. But no one suggests that "Traditional Amahuaca Medicine" should be credited with anything like the nonsensical mysticism TCM is given. Just because a load of chaps with wooden plates in their face use this stuff (and have done for xthousand years) doesn't mean I'm about to go licking the backs of frogs.

Without the little old Chinese women behind the desk, and an unexplained western habit of imbuing anything vaguely "oriental" with some sort of overhyped sense of power and complexity, TCM would be seen for pseudo-medical bobbins it really is.

[Bellenden Belle]

AnnaJ.

I believe I agreed with you that the post you quoted sounded dismissive.

Your question was whether you were the only person who saw a middle ground. I was merely clarifying how for me, there is such a middle ground - where such active ingredients are properly and thoroughly examined by trained professionals.

I was putting my own reservations about "Chinese Medicine" in context, rather than dismissing your posts, which I have indeed read.

[Atticus]

Conclusion:

Narnia - why don't you have a rummage around his school bag for fags? and ignore all the TCM bollox

[karter]

Annaj, hats off to you for staying on this discussion after bowing out. I wonder what active ingredients they will discover on Mars when they send out the two couples that have agreed not to return to earth and what disease those actives they may be able to cure. Until then there are only closed minds and drugs with side-effects and my question was not answered about the thousands of people that suffer and die from these horrendous side-effects from allopathic medicine.

[Huguenot]

"my question was not answered about the thousands of people that suffer and die from these horrendous side-effects from allopathic medicine"

It wasn't answered because it was a breathtakingly irresponsibile smear, and a gross misrepresentation of the argument.

Evidence based medicine (EBM) can indeed sometimes fail to find an appropriate treatment, and in extremely unusual incidents have unintended side-effects. It is testament to the honesty and ambition of the industry that these are out in the open, with the evidence for all to see.

Highlighting these incidents as a deliberate scare tactic to undermine EBM is in denial of the billions of people who are alive because of EBM, and frankly it's the kind of misrepresentation that could only be delivered by a scoundrel.

It's like saying we shouldn't have a lifeboat service because they don't manage to save everybody, and some of those they did save got a broken arm getting into the lifeboat in 40 ft seas and Force 8 gales. Sheer moronity.

The evidence of occasional failure in EBM is in vivid contrast to the serial dishonesty and cover ups from those practising more esoteric treatments.

Frankly karter, you're trying to 'own' annaj's comments as if they were in support of your case, which they are plainly not.

Annaj is simply pointing out that if many EBM treatments are generated from natural compounds then it would be foolish to rule out investigating Chinese herbs based on prejudice. I quite agree with her.

This is effectively the application of scientific methodology to the study of TCM.

It certainly doesn't support the blart rolled out in favour of Qi energy enhancement, and the deception and mendacity practised by it's adherents.

[annaj]

Thank you.

[Saila]

> Until then there are only closed minds and drugs with side-effects and my question was not answered about the thousands of people that suffer and die from these horrendous side-effects from allopathic medicine.

A drug without side effects is not a drug

it's about weighing up the risks versus the benefits

e.g. Thalidomide an infamous drug, initially indicated for morning sickness and often discussed due to the catastrophic effects it had on unborn children

Today this drug is used to treat Multiple Myeloma where the benefits of this treatment far outwiegh the risks

The drug increases overall survival in these cancer patients - but you wouldn't take it for morning sickness ...

[Jeremy]

COME ON DAVID!! Stop back-peddling and changing your argument! Do you still believe that Chinese herbal medicine is only a placebo, and will never contain an effective active ingredient?

[karter]

Apologies to annaj if i am trying to own annaj's comments, not intended. Drugs have their place, TCM has its place and so does any other form of therapy that people find of use whether it helps them on an emotional, spiritual or physical level. I have never tried Reiki but somebody on this thread mentioned that it helped them. Why the F**k put it down and dismiss it? Some people may not be attuned or grounded enough to receive healing but everyone has healing capabilities. Jesus healed right? Bring it on.