Traditional Chinese Medicine

[RosieH]

But headaches can be caused by stress, tension, bad posture - all kinds of things that a little tlc and relaxation could cure.

Sorry, but "energy shifts" sounds like twaddle to me. I had someone do (what's the verb?) reiki on me once. She was a friend and had just completed her training. She had hot hands because she'd just rubbed them together furiously - but no more so than if I rub my hands together and use the heat to relieve menstrual cramps. Doesn't make me a reiki master.

[????]

Rosie, you missed "than are deamt of in our pholsosophy" bit, tsk, Frailty thy name etc

[RosieH]

Stylistic flourish, Quids: I figured the good burghers of ED are well versed in their Hamlet, and didn't want to insult.

Although, if you'll excuse the pedantry, isn't it than are dreamt of in your philosophy..?

[dulwichmum]

david_carnell Wrote:

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> And what do you know Sue? Are you a qualified

> medical doctor perhaps, with a minimum of seven

> years training?

I hate to burst your bubble David, but medicine takes 5 years (you can add one more year to that if you take time out to do an intercollated degree in the middle). You can qualify in 4 years at Kings if you are already a graduate. Where did the 7 years come from? Does that take into account failing two years on the way and having to repeat them?

[antijen]

Before I'd experienced reiki myself, I had been offered it (yes free) but never met anyone whom I felt I could totally feel

open to as I believe a connection, for me must be there. Then I met some fantastic people who gave there time for free, each

practicing diffrent forms of healing, giving a night where they offered there services to people who couldn't afford it.

And here I met a woman who was doing reiki, I never spoke to her, only watched her but knew absolutely I could let

myself go and totally open up. She spoke of a blockage in my heart area but did not know on what level. much more which I

won't go into only to say it fely imperative for my health that I met this woman.

Annaj speaks of physical and mental levels, of understanding the importance and what can be learned, but many people have

great understanding of this, now this may surprise the cynical and scientifically minded, but there are also many who find

conventional treatment does not offer help or recognise other levels. Of course individualism comes into it whether this

be a doctor,aromatherapist, herbalist etc. motives, delusions of granduer, often from people who regard themselves as

experts, and of course money.

I had one more reiki with this woman, and these are my only experience but it had a huge affect on my life.

[????]

RosieH Wrote:

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> Stylistic flourish, Quids: I figured the good

> burghers of ED are well versed in their Hamlet,

> and didn't want to insult.

>

> Although, if you'll excuse the pedantry, isn't it

> than are dreamt of in your philosophy..?

;-)

[david_carnell]

To all who have highlighted my errorin the number of years require for medical training - many apologies. Clearly my general point was lost in a myopia of pedantry. But thank you nonetheless.

By the way.... I'm travelling to Vietnam in a months time and need some vaccines. My doctor tells me typhoid is needed but I reckon some elderly chinese women in a shop can do better. Could anyone tell me which herbs to take to avoid a fatal contagious disease?

Thanks in advance,

Tosser.

[taper]

I'm genuinely troubled by the lack of scepticism on this forum about complementary or alternative therapies. The dangers lie on a spectrum of people being relieved of their cash (amber necklaces for teething), through being given false hope, to the genuinely dangerous point where they eschew treatments that work in favour of quackery for potentially life threatening conditions (so homepathic vaccines).Homeopathy has been done to death here and elsewhere, and rational people are in no doubt it has no efficacy beyond the placebo (the evidence here is clear).

But some of the more obscure therapies rear their heads on the Forum, are given a series of personal endorsements by posters and might by dint of this persuade other individuals to seek such "treatments". What makes the task of disabusing posters of any doubt that certain "treatments" don't work is that people on the forum who endorse these "treatments" are I am sure geunine in their belief that they "work" and it isn't a particularly pleasant task seeking to disabuse them. So for instance a recent spat i got involved in ended up with some of us pointing out to a poster that the websites they were praying in aid of their case (anti-vaccines) were linked to aids or even holocaust denial sites.

The process I go through when faced with claims that a new treatment I've never heard of (reiki, ear candling, feldenkrais) work is to go to a website which endorses the treatment and read what the underpinning theory is. So for reiki a google search takes you here http://www.reikiassociation.org.uk/3.html where you learn:

"Reiki (pronounced Ray-key) is a Japanese word meaning Universal Life Energy, an energy which is all around us"

and

"It is possible to heal at any level of being: physical, mental, emotional or spiritual. Acute injuries can be helped to heal very quickly but more chronic illness takes longer. In some cases such as terminal illness, there is not enough time for the progress of the disease to be reversed. However, in such cases there is usually great benefit and enhancement of the quality of life giving a sense of peace and acceptance during the time remaining"

Now that's a big claim. And as Carl Sagan said (i think) Extraordinary claims require extraodinary evidence. But none is given. Just woo.

So I then look to see what qualifications practioners have. The International Center for Reiki Training tells me:

"Reiki is not taught in the usual sense, but is transferred to the student during a Reiki class. This ability is passed on during an "attunement" given by a Reiki master and allows the student to tap into an unlimited supply of "life force energy" to improve one's health and enhance the quality of life."

For me this sets the alarm bells ringing. And I'm not yet ready to tear up my NHS card. Remarkably science has often tested the claims these "treatments" make. Quackwatch is a really good and quick way of seeing what's out there. And here it is on Reiki,

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/reiki.html

It gives a good survey of the studies carried out which show Reiki to be worthless and the article concludes:

"Reiki has no substantiated health value and lacks a scientifically plausible rationale. Science-based healthcare settings should not tolerate its use, and scarce government research dollars should not be used to study it further"

It's pretty good on chinese medicine too:

http://www.quackwatch.com/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/acu.html

The OP should read it, follow the links, and hopefully will be in better position to make their own mind up.

So that's when i do when faced with "extraordinary claims". I do the same when i read of a "wonder drug" in the press too. All I recommend is that people are sceptical, look to the science and do not substitute personal recommendations for proper analysis. It doesn't take long, even for someone like me with no formal medical training.

[RosieH]

Great post Taper.

I don't mean to insult anyone with my scepticism, and when it comes to a terminal illness, I'm sure that a sense of peace and acceptance can be a wonderful thing (although whether that's preferable to a sense of anger and purpose is probably down to the individual).

But I just can't see how reiki can offer any benefits beyond those you get from a massage or having a lovely foot rub in the form of reflexology - it's relaxing, it's soothing, it makes you feel good and releases tension. It gives you 50 (? ) minutes of a practitioner's time so that you feel listened to, respected, valued, instead of the 8 minutes you get in the doctor's.

There is a clear benefit to all of those things: stress can cause very real physiological symptoms, and relieving stress may well relieve those symptoms. But can they cure actual illness or injury? Sorry, but for a broken arm or cancer, I'll require something soundly based on evidence.

[karter]

Relevant way to sign your post, nice one.

When you get to Vietnam hopefully you will not need local remedies to help you with diarrhoea and parasites.

If you are looking for advice on chinese herbs don't ask some quack on some high street who is not qualified and not insured but why not ask a local TCM practitioner as recommended on here, that's if they see you.

Hopefully you will have more respect for cultures and practices whilst you are in Asia.

Have a nice holiday.

[huncamunca]

Its mostly a tax on the poor and the gullible & defending this shite publicly is pretty shoddy

If you get a placebo buzz from it, then fine, but personhal anecdote is not proven fact & it is disingenious to present it as such

[huncamunca]

Oh yes, I have an Orgone Accumulator to rent on an hourly basis - ?50 p/h

Anyone who wants to get the benefit of its poweful yet unproven Orgone energy , drop me a PM.

Having an accumulator ( for rent ) has changed my life ( and income ) significantly

[Narnia]

So things you don't understand Snorky equate to people being ripped off for money? How do you prove you are alive and not just in a 'dream'? Do you really know if there is anything around the next corner before you get there? If two people agree that something is 'green' for example, who is to say that what one person is seeing isn't purple?

[mockney piers]

Reiki == the force.

I really wanted to believe in the force when I was young, but sadly just because you want to believe in something doesn't make it true.

I do have a lightsaber though, very useful for slicing frozen bread.

[Saila]

>"I'm genuinely troubled by the lack of scepticism on this forum about complementary or alternative therapies..."

I honestly think most people view alternative therapies, and other unproven approaches to medicine, as so ridiculous they don't bother posting about it

It's depressing, but i can only put it down to a lack of a proper scientific education in our schools... It's amazing how many people don't know:

What a compound is

What natural is and what synthetic is

What placebo effect is

What 'toxins' are

That natural doesn't mean it's safe ...

This reminds me of a funny thread where someone trying to sell some sort of healing-lamps on LL (for ?17.50 a pop!) talked about neutrons having negative charge which will offset *bad* positive charge or something like this - complete rubbish.

Thankfully one of his many bizarre 'facts' was quoted in the R&A post cos he swiftly went in and edited out his comment - funny!!!!

Just poor education and lashings of sincerity = a big pile of BS. Neutrons are NEUTRAL and protons aren't zooming around the air for us to dodge !

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?30,416376,423939#msg-423939

[Narnia]

How/who will you treat your depression Saila?

[Saila]

Narnia Wrote:

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> How/who will you treat your depression Saila?

just reading this cheers me up :)

[karter]

Nice post Saila.

Mockney- the force is always with you, just believe in it.

[Huguenot]

I don't think the problem with TCM is a lack of understanding, it's the complete lack of evidence that it has ever done what it claims to do - successfully treat illness.

Hence the 'rip-off' element is that it doesn't do what you've paid for it to do.

That's the problem with this observation of karter's:

"When you get to Vietnam hopefully you will not need local remedies to help you with diarrhoea and parasites."

Local mystical remedies are not capable of helping with diarrhoea or parasites; St. John's Wort isn't going to cure you of cholera, neither will a well-meaning middle aged housewife by waving her arms and hummming.

[RosieH]

But St John's Wort will help you if you get there and it's not all you expected and you feel a bit down about it.

Unless you're on the pill David. Then it will kill you.

[Huguenot]

That'll be evidence based medicine then? Hurrah.

I didn't know about the fatal side effects - this could make it a useful opportunity to bump someone off?

[binary_star]

Saila Wrote:

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> I honestly think most people view alternative

> therapies, and other unproven approaches to

> medicine, as so ridiculous they don't bother

> posting about it

Yes, I've been reading this thread with interest/bewilderment but not posted so far for the reason stated above.

EDIT: And I probably wont post anything else because as someone once said "against logic there is no armour like ignorance" and quite frankly only a masochist would enjoy the amount of head/brick wall interaction required to convert the believers.

[antijen]

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?29,367280,369058#msg-369058

Above is the link to the post taper , I presume is talking about, yes I quoted the website and have explained my reasons. Twice

this week also in the family room has this been mentioned, above all I cannot spend much time in front of a computer,

therefor I am quite computer illiterate, no I did not check this website but I recognised the info the page on the site that came up when I googled it.

How sad people will look back a year to find something to discredit, regardless of my explaining.

DC A good website for alternatives for travel vaccines is WTDWTY, (what the doctors dont tell you).

[antijen]

RosieH Wrote:

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> But St John's Wort will help you if you get there

> and it's not all you expected and you feel a bit

> down about it.

>

> Unless you're on the pill David. Then it will

> kill you.

This is true when combined but on its own it has helped many. Peole seem to be saying either placebo or very dangerous, I find this very curious.

[RosieH]

antjen, I'm not. I said reiki is placebo - that's not the same thing as Chinese medicine or 'erbal remedies (where, as anna j pointed out much earlier, there are active ingredients, rather than someone nicely stroking you - ooh, I've just remembered reading somewhere that gentle masturbation is good for period pain. That's what I call placebo.)