Traditional Chinese Medicine

[karter]

Dear David, go on son, try and use the word prescribed, it will be good for you. Chinese herbalists and Western herbalists that are registered and insured cannot use banned substances and that one case(sad as it is)is unfortunate. What about the thousands of people that have suffered injury from being prescribed allopathic meds, turning them suicidal, depressed, homicidal, giving them brain damage, paralysis and more or don't you want to talk about that?

[Mick Mac]

"Go on son ...."

Brave Karter, seek shelter my boy.

[annaj]

Are you a qualified medical doctor perhaps, with a minimum of seven years training?

Umm, Sue may not be, but I am (although the minimun training is five years, not seven, but I have six plus eleven years experience and two post-graduate diplomas, if we're counting) and you seem to have ignored everything I've said. You should, perhaps, read Ben Goldacre's chapter on the tendancy to asign more value to evidence that supports your view and dismissing that which does not.

Unregulated and variable teaching and practice is obviously wrong, but that is an argument for better regulation, not for throwing the baby out with the bathwater. And of course I completely agree that teaching that herbs and acupuncture can treat cancer is irresponsible and unethical.

But elsewhere in his writing Goldacre also expresses his interest, as a scientist, in further trials of acupuncture and exploring the relationship with placebo.

And, yes, there are some herbs that cause renal failure, all of which are banned in the UK. There are also conventional medicines with catastrophic side-effects, such as the highly teratogenic roacutane used for acne, the use of which is tightly controlled. So, again it's question of regulation.

I'm not saying it works, I don't know if it does or not, I'm saying as a scientist and a doctor I see enough evidence to think there may be value in it and not dismiss it entirely as woo.

[antijen]

DC Have yoou read about Scott Reuben, the doctor who was jailed in June this year (6 months) for faking research on extremely dangerous drugs.

http://www.gaia-health.com/articles251/000266-doctor-faked-research-on-drug-that-killed-thousands-gets-only-6-months.shtml

Heres a link. Regulators did not help in this case, in fact the drug company fought thousands of cases in court, and may I say,

through peoples personal experiences eg. dying. Millions of pounds have been paid and know one knows how many died.

[annaj]

Sean, no, to say the placebo effect is powerful is not at all the same thing as saying ignorance is bliss.

It's recognising that, actually, we know very little about the relationship between mind and body and maybe trying to learn more. You know, what with science being about expanding our knowledge an' all.

[karter]

annaj Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sean, no, to say the placebo effect is powerful is

> not at all the same thing as saying ignorance is

> bliss.

> It's recognising that, actually, we know very

> little about the relationship between mind and

> body and maybe trying to learn more. You know,

> what with science being about expanding our

> knowledge an' all.

Agreed annaj, a holistic approach is a good way to go.

Cheers to antijen.

Mick, i stick my fingers up to that guy.

[annaj]

Don't get excited, Karter, I'm not turning pro-woo.

I'm saying if the point of science is to understand our world better, we really can't ignore something as huge and powerful and exciting as our ability to make something work, because we believe it will.

[karter]

Thanks annaj, wouldn't expect you to turn pro-woo, respect though.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Really Annaj??

That sounds very very close to agreeing with people who swallow a dilution of a dilution of a dilution (times near infinity) of a memory and claim it makes them better

That there are huuuge unchartered waters between the mind and body I don't dispute. Learning more I'm all for. I just don't think chinese medicine is trying to learn more about anything. It is what it is. Or am I missing the vast tracts of ongoing research in this area? Honest question: do people in the west take it because deep down they think it has "mystical" properties?

I like people pointing out western medicine failing people and encourage more of the same tho. It helps raise the bar. But I don't see any throwing babies out with bathwater. Medicine works or doesn't. if it works because of it's properties then let's have more. That's how western medicine works no? If it works for other reasons let's figure out a bit more but remaining sceptical is fine

I don't need to give YOU examples of woo versus medicine but you seem to be stretching to accomodate a point here.

Few people go for a tooth extraction with herbal medicine. Many mothers want to have natural births but when it goes wrong they bemoan the hospital not treating them quickly enough. More research into acupuncture and such? I'm with you and Goldacre. But I can't see people deciding a critical moment as the perfect time for that research

I trust drug companies as much as I trust herbalists. IE not at all. I trust years of results. If a drug company pushes a new drug you won't find me signing up for trials. But if they mess up they will be held accountable.

[SeanMacGabhann]

That because we believe it will is interesting. Belief is interesting. I agree with you. And yet, and yet I'm struggling not to invoke Godwin's here. Belief can and should be a curiosity which leads to knowledge. Belief for it's own sake - people going "well I believe you are wrong!!!! And no evidence will change my mind" scare the shite out of me

[antijen]

I don't think its about being right or wrong, I took it annaj was saying keep an open mind.

[SeanMacGabhann]

and it's to annaj's credit that she does that

but one CAN go too far down that road

[DulwichFox]

What about Traditional Chinese Beer :)-D

[SeanMacGabhann]

Now you're talking

http://chaangthairestaurant.com/Images/tsingtao.jpg

And none of that western Coors nonsense!

[antijen]

Not personnaly you cant sean, if someone is extremely ill its a road they must go down, and as annaj's work involves

dealing with ill people, why shouldn't she travel a little down that road.

[karter]

One road leads to another, new places are found new herbs are found, that world cannot be dismissed.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I'm not saying they shouldn't or can't. They can. If they want

But it's in the interest of us all if we can understand how they made it back.

[antijen]

Sorry sean, how who made it bak?

[david_carnell]

Karter - stick two fingers up all you want.

You wouldn't happen to have a vested interest in complementary medicine would you? Like, ooh, I don't know....a family member who works in a local shop peddling this snake oil to unsuspecting customers would you? Or would you, in fact, be a founder of such an establishment?

Because I think people should know that sort of thing before you post your true beliefs on all that is good and holy about tree bark and panda bile.

It's a bit duplicitous otherwise, no?

[SeanMacGabhann]

Antijen. Anyone who travels down the road you mentioned

[antijen]

If your travelling with someone its not your personnel stories but theres lots too be learned, regardless whether it is a way

you agree with or not, it is important to not be judgemental however strongly you feel. I believe you cannot separate the

mind from the body, i think its about believing that people have a choice and supporting people through that choice.

[Ladymuck]

karter Wrote:

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What about the thousands of people

> that have suffered injury from being prescribed

> allopathic meds, turning them suicidal, depressed,

> homicidal, giving them brain damage, paralysis and

> more or don't you want to talk about that?

A difficult but really personal story.

My mother suffered with extremely regular migraines. Various GPs prescribed "conventional" medicine: painkillers, anti-depressants, sleeping tablets and goodness knows what else - despite the fact that, at the time, the fact that this cocktail of medication could lead to depression and suicide was well documented. She eventually killed herself by throwing herself under a train. I now suffer from the same migraines and, incredibly, have been offered similar medication.

[karter]

*hugs big sis*

Thanks David for that, i happen to own several shops and properties in your area and in London and i have always been open enough about that and i have vested interests in several sectors and i am not promoting anything in particular. I find what you say about this subject very closed and i am not alone in thinking that it seems. We are all entitled to our opinions. I wonder what your day job is, Doctor.B)

['bout now]

Tree Bark = Aspirin. 40,000 tonnes consumed per year. Ying and Yang innit.

[Ladymuck]

*overtakes Mr. Quids at lightening speed, shoves him out of the way, and then strikes*

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