Traditional Chinese Medicine

[karter]

Ladymuck Wrote:

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> *overtakes Mr. Quids at lightening speed, shoves

> him out of the way, and then strikes*

>

>

> 100

oh bugger it LM, i was waiting in the shadow. Well done.:))

[antijen]

How sad Ladymuck. I hope you can find something to relieve your migraines, and also the cause.

[annaj]

Sean, yes, really.

Am I not expressing myself well? Because you seem to be completely misunderstanding me.

Homeopathy is woo based on nothing. Water doesn't have memory and homeopathic remedies have no active ingredients. Chinese herbal medicines do have active ingredients.

Chinese herbal medicine is not evidence-based, but neither is a huge amounts of western medicine. EBM is a new concept and treatments that were standard and proven, by years of experience to work (like n-acetylcycsteine for paracetamol overdose based on a small case series, over 30 years ago) have not been re-tested, because it's difficult to design an ethical trial of something that we know works from experience.

Western medicine is also not pure science, even the evidence-based parts. Placebo is there all the time in medicine and we are all susceptible to it, even you, Sean. Bright coloured pills work better. My patients feel better if I'm nice to them while I'm treating them. Placebo effect is also not just about belief or philosphical interest, it has real, important, practical implications. How can we hope to understand or treat conversion or pyschosomatic disorders without understand it better? Don't forget, Goldacre devotees, what his chosen specialty is.

As for TCM practioners and advocates not being interested in scientific research, in my experience, and this is something I've looked at both professionally and personally, that's not true and that, as I said in my first post, is the other thing that sets it apart. Maybe not "vast" amounts, but there is work being done to design trials that overcome the inherant difficulties in studying an intervention like acupuncture and there has been at least one RCT published in the Lancet.

I think I'm going to bow out though, because with you, antijen and Karter all seemingly misinterpreting me (antijen, sorry nothing personal, but just because I think there might be some merit in investigating TCM, doesn't put us at all on the same side) and D_C ignoring me I think it's rapidly going to become the kind of discussion that's just not worth it.

[annaj]

Sorry, just to add, LM, I hadn't seen your post when I posted that, so I realise it must look like I was ignoring a very personal post.

I'm really sorry for your loss, suicide is a dreadful thing to have experienced.

[Ladymuck]

Thank you all for your kind words. The saddest thing of all is that her death was totally preventable.

Still, moving on...

[david_carnell]

I'm not ignoring you anna. I'm out having dinner and have other things to do. Maybe tomorrow eh?

[antijen]

Anyway, Narnia hows your boys cough.

[silverfox]

Ramble66 Wrote:

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> TMC is great but avoid the high street guys who

> just want to rip you off. I can recommend Angelo

> at the Vale Practice on Grove Vale. He does

> chinese herbs as well as acupuncture.

> http://www.angelodalberto.com/

Angelo sounds Italian to me... Don't tell me, he did a course.

What would Confucius say about these two-bit quacks?

[antijen]

The Italian who practice accupuncture must have a point.

[Jeremy]

david_carnell Wrote:

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> And you tack on that final paragraph like an after

> thought...

>

> The problem is that it's not regulated (at least

> in this country)... so remedies are not subject to

> trials, and people are ripped off or given

> inappropriate treatments.

>

> ...as if it's scarcely worth mentioning. Not

> subject to trial. Ripped off. Inappropriate.

>

> I'd add downright dangerous. Did you read the case

> in my link about the civil servant being given (I

> refuse to use the word prescribed) high doses of a

> banned substance that caused her to lose the use

> of her kidneys?

I think you misunderstand my argument. We are in agreement on the above, but it is a criticism of some practitioners, and of the failure of the UK govt to regulate them. It is not a criticism of the medicine itself.

The pseudo-science behind it may seem dubious to you and me, but the facts are that Chinese herbal medicine can work. And it seems overwhelmingly likely that there are effective remedies available which have not yet been picked up by mainstream medicine.

Being cynical is OK, but I don't think we should be close-minded.

[Narnia]

antijen Wrote:

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> Anyway, Narnia hows your boys cough.

Well he came home for the w/end yesterday and it seems quite bad to me. Went into his room early this morning to give him some cough mixture as his coughing was so loud.

So you all had your say...........anyone got a good home made remedy that works?

PS What do you think of reiki, crystal healing and bach remedies?

[The Minkey]

My physio uses acupuncture and has used it on me to release trigger points. When he hits the mark, the whole muscle flips and the trigger point dissipates.

[RosieH]

Minkey, sorry to be dense, but I don't know what that means.

Narnia, as for the cough, for me the only thing that really helped was keeping my chest warm and keeping plenty hydrated - hot showers, avoiding cold air, and some nice linctus that, while I don't think it does anything to cure the cough, at least means the throat is less irritated and I think less susceptible to the next coughing bout (at least that's how it felt).

[taper]

reiki and crystal healing are clearly worthless. Listening to classical music can soothe a troubled mind.

[Narnia]

What qualifies you to make that statement taper?

[Sue]

Narnia Wrote:

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>> PS What do you think of reiki, crystal healing and

> bach remedies?

xxxxxxx

Bach remedies are more for emotional issues, though some of them can be effective for physical issues.

I think it's highly unlikely that any of them would relieve a cough, though you could try Crab apple, which is cleansing.

Had you thought of asking advice at the health shop in Lordship Lane? Can't remember what it's called but it also has a complementary therapy place attached.

ETA: I'm sure someone is going to come on and say that Reiki is a load of rubbish. I first came across Reiki in the seventies. I had had an absolutely splitting headache all day. Somebody did Reiki on my head and the headache completely disappeared.

As a result of that I actually trained in Reiki myself, though I don't do it much any more.

But again, I wouldn't have thought it was suitable for a chronic cough. My bet is on asthma.

[Narnia]

I asked about reiki etc not as a possible cure for a cough but to see what experiences anybody had of them if any. My other half is into reiki though at the moment she just uses it on friends. She always gets good feedback too.

[*Bob*]

Sue Wrote:

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> ETA: I'm sure someone is going to come on and say

> that Reiki is a load of rubbish.

Can I be first?

[taper]

narnia - Nothing whatsoever. But it is utter twaddle, with no evidence it has any medical value beyond placebo.

[Narnia]

I think your answer is utter twaddle.

[Sue]

*Bob* Wrote:

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> Sue Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > ETA: I'm sure someone is going to come on and

> say

> > that Reiki is a load of rubbish.

>

>

> Can I be first?

xxxxxxxx

And you know - what? - about Reiki that enables you to say that?

[antijen]

narnia If its in his chest a mustard poultice is another good remedy, and the herbs are still on offer, myself and children believe they work, I have used them for years and years, some of them been given to me as a child, you are more than welcome.

[Sue]

david_carnell Wrote:

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> And what do you know Sue? Are you a qualified

> medical doctor perhaps, with a minimum of seven

> years training?

xxxxxxxx

No, I studied and taught psychology for eight years which enables me to spot a closed-mind t*sser from a great distance :))

[RosieH]

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, but Sue, my understanding is that to date there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that reiki offers anything more than placebo.

I'm willing to be convinced otherwise if you can offer some proof of its efficacy (and I reiterate, I think placebo effect is massively powerful).

[Sue]

RosieH Wrote:

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> There are more things in heaven and earth,

> Horatio, but Sue, my understanding is that to date

> there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that

> reiki offers anything more than placebo.

>

> I'm willing to be convinced otherwise if you can

> offer some proof of its efficacy (and I reiterate,

> I think placebo effect is massively powerful).

xxxxxxxxx

I've got no particular interest in spending time googling stuff in order to prove a point :)

I was not expecting somebody putting their hands on my head to relieve a severe headache I had had all day, so I do not agree it's a placebo effect.

With Reiki and other forms of healing you often feel heat, for a start. If you are sensitive you can also sense energy shifts.