The Goverment cuts EMA is that fair?

[Ridgley]

I understand your point Zeban a very valid one, I myself had help but in those days it was called a grant and it did help me a lot it would have been a struggle for my mum to support me other wise. If I did not have that help the pressure for me would have been to leave school early and find work to help support the family.

That is why I am coming from this pint of view if this helps a student further there education without pressure of finance then it is a great thing.

[louisiana]

When I was in the sixth form, my mum paid me the child benefit she got for me (I was no longer living at home). That and part-time bar work got me through to A levels. Or it was doing until the pub manager become overly familiar (they'd call it harassment these days) and I had to leave in a hurry. Working evenings and weekends in the pub didn't leave me much time for doing any homework, so my grades were not as hot as they could have been, and I ended up having to drop one A level (or rather, the school was so fussed about grades, that they'd force you to drop any subject that you might not get a top grade in).

I'm sure there are still some school students who for various reasons have to support themselves. What happens to them these days?

[Brendan]

Education is not always necessary. David Cameron and his ilk still need people to clean their toilets don?t they? They can take advantage of opportunities like that which the free market offers. They should be grateful for the choice and freedom they have.

[DJKillaQueen]

but both DJKQ and zeban seem to be saying that they disapprove of the EMA completely

We didn't say that at all H.

I was making the point that as a scheme it fails because the only requirement to get the money is to 'turn up'. That in turn tells me that it is a scheme designed to keep young people of the unemployment register as much as anything else. We have very high youth unemployment in the UK. It's a specific problem. It isn't helped if we don't make sure that young people are actually learning anything at college.

So my solution would be that college/ course funding should not be performance linked but that the EMA payment should be. I totally support facilitating disadvantaged people into education (and totally agree with the earlier comment that many young people get part time jobs to do that) but education means education. Employers need to be assured that if a young person has a qualification in mechanics, they really can strip an engine and put it back together. This unfortunately is often not the case.

So for me, make he EMA dependent on performance, and make the course funding not.

[PeckhamRose]

Yep that's all right and fair and I agree.

MrPR's mate who does a similar thing in the west country, reports exactly the same story as he did to me which I reported above. Kids turn up, get their money then go, but the college bosses tell their teachers that failure is not an option. So absentee kids are paid all that money and they get the qualifications and the college gets the money. If it happened in Mr PR and MrPR's mate's college, it may have happened around the country. So linking EMA to results and not making colleges rely on funding according to results makes more sense. I think!

[Ridgley]

I can see all points of view, being made on this thread but I have to say yet again EMA helps a lot of students like I said earlier I did receive a grants and went on to a part-time job but my grades did suffer as working long weekends and trying to do my school work, I was quite fortunate there was a scheme called YTS and I went on to that it help me in my profession.

[PeckhamRose]

I understand.

And now the government are reintroducing an Enterprise Allowance Scheme.

I was on that in Thatcher's day. Brilliant, it was. Got paid ?40 a week whether I earned nothing or millions.

It was nearer nothing. But it was a start. Of course now that I hardly earn anything I am not allowed to claim any benefits being self employed. But hey swings and roundabouts.

[Ridgley]

Is the Enterprise Allowance Scheme Similar to YTS? If so then great this will help a lot of students who not necessarily academic like myself who had to struggle with dyslexia and other issues but in the end I was a determined person I wanted to succeed.

[PeckhamRose]

No. Enterprise Allowance is helping people set up their own businesses; helping us all be self employed.

Lots of courses on marketing and selling and so on.

It was very popular among the stand up comedians in the 80s who are now multi million pound earners!

[*Bob*]

I used to do this thing with my flatmate when we were on the rock n roll: we'd turn-up once a fortnight to a class and spend an hour or so listening to someone explain how to switch on a computer - and they gave us an extra tenner a week.

Great for keeping the dole off your back. "I'm tryin'.."

[david_carnell]

@DJKQ & PeckhamRose

How could EMA be linked to results to combat the turn-upand-get-paid problem you report?

Either it would be based on end-of-year exam results that are assessed independently, which would mean that the students would have to wait a whole year to receive any money

OR

It would be based on markings from a tutor or lecturer, which would seem open to the very abuses you mention taking place currently, if not more since the poor tutor would be liable not only for teaching but be responsible for benefit payments. The teaching unions would have a fit!

[PeckhamRose]

I do not know, David.

I just said a crazy idea.

I don't work in the industry.

But something has to change!

[DJKillaQueen]

It could be done by means of continuous assessment (which is a process already well used within our schools and Universities). So my suggestion would be end of term assessments...which means four a year, and if the required minimum standard isn't reached for two consequestive terms, the EMA is stopped.

All teachers and examiniers by the way have straight forward ways of assessing students. You either know how to do something from your lesson or you don't. You can't fabricate that. If large numbers of pupils are failing under a particular teacher then that can be looked at but again, when you look at education stats you find pretty even levels of pass rate year on year.

After all, when I did my degree, my grant depended on my passing each years end of year exams. Fail any of them and don't pass a retake, don't get to continue.

There is no point throwing money at a young person if it yields no results.

[david_carnell]

I'm not sure that teachers should be used to judge whether someone receives a government grant. It's not really part of their job description.

And do you not think that would be open to abuse, both by unscrupulous teachers and pupils?

All teachers and examiniers by the way have straight forward ways of assessing students. You either know how to do something from your lesson or you don't. You can't fabricate that. If large numbers of pupils are failing under a particular teacher then that can be looked at but again, when you look at education stats you find pretty even levels of pass rate year on year.

And I think you've just written this without thinking it through or really knowing the industry. Learning and education isn't as simple as "knowing something or you don't" and assessing pupils in normal circumstance is not "straight forward" but actually incredibly complex and that is without a financial penalty should you be failing.

I'm afraid anecdotal evidence is yet to convince me that the system is broke to require either its abolition or such root-and-branch reform.

[DJKillaQueen]

That's not true. Exams and test papers are set according to a central curriculum. It's a system that has measured what children do and don't know for decades, and pretty sucessfully at that. If I show a child how to do a sum they either learn how to do it or they don't. I can test that by giving them another sum and asking them to do it on their own. That's what teaching and learning is. Easily measured.

Of course there are some children that need extra help or different teaching methods but the procvess will be the same...I show you and then you show me YOU can do it.

At the moment you have kids leaving FE colleges with bits of paper that say they have studied a certain curriculum and reached a certaim minimum standard of knowledge when they haven't. It matters because if an 18 year has a qualification in motor mechanics then he should be able to tune a carburettor. Employers increasingly are saying some of these kids can't do anything they are supposedly qualified to do.

Standards of maths and written english come under particular criticism, not just from employers but also Universities who increasingly are using entrance exams to determine which students are a true reflection of the qualifications they present.

[The Minkey]

"So for me, make he EMA dependent on performance, and make the course funding not."

Sense.

[david_carnell]

That's not true. Exams and test papers are set according to a central curriculum. It's a system that has measured what children do and don't know for decades, and pretty sucessfully at that. If I show a child how to do a sum they either learn how to do it or they don't. I can test that by giving them another sum and asking them to do it on their own. That's what teaching and learning is. Easily measured.

Except that is an incredibly simplified example that would only be of use in primary school maths class.

We are talking about FE courses as varied as hairdressing, tourism, food science and childcare as well as traditional subjects. Whilst these have some exam based assessment, a lot is course work which is marked by teachers. I do not think it is feasible or sensible to have teachers grading students when there are financial implications at stake.

You are turning teachers into judge and jury.

Nor am I convinced that achievement is even the best way of deciding this. Is it anyone that gets above a C? D grade? E? Where do you draw the line? Either this benefit exists and should be universal or it shouldn't and should be scrapped. It cannot be given based on arbitrary teaching standards that will vary wildly from classroom to classroom, school to school and borough to borough. That's a nonsense.

[DJKillaQueen]

I do not think it is feasible or sensible to have teachers grading students when there are financial implications at stake.

Teachers are professionals and I think we should give them more credit than that, to exercise good judgement. It wouldn't need to be teachers anyway. How hard is it to have an end of term exam or practical assessment marked by an external assessor? External assessors already do that at most Universities. That is what decides if someone passes a course or not. And it CAN be applied to any subject.

It's a fact that some courses are full of students that are never going to pass them, for various reasons, one of which is sometimes that they can't be bothered to learn. And don't even get me started on the impact of that on those that ARE there to learn. I speak to teenagers attending FE colleges regularly and they all tell me that is the situation including the colleges and courses where it goes on.

That is NOT helping students, or teachers, or employers, or tax payers either. It's just keeping some young people of unemployment figures.

Colleges (at fault) need to be returned to places for those who WANT to learn and we need to find other ways to help those that don't/ won't or can't engage in education/ training with something that improves their prospects for employment.

[aquarius moon]

My 17 year old daughter started college in September. She receives ?30 per week EMA.

I am not actually able to work at the moment, so have hardly any money coming in.

My daughters EMA pays for her educational books etc, her lunches/clothes for college.

If she didn't receive this extra help, she would not even be able to attend college, as

I would not be able to provide all these things for her. She wants a career and is doing well.

There are loads of people like us, who need EMA, and are not abusing the system.

[ImpetuousVrouw]

DJK, what happens if kids fail because the teacher is crap? Should they still lose their EMA?

[Ridgley]

Exactly my point, Aquarius Moon your daughter is one of the students who needs EMA and to say that they should cut it. Is wrong there some students who do abuse the system but don?t penalise everyone that is, unfair my daughter has one more year before she goes to art college this will defiantly help her and others like her.

It funny how the government makes these decisions and they themselves had grants and financial assistants but they want to deny others.

[Huguenot]

Ha ha! :))

I love it when people inadvertently say very insghtful things... "my daughter has one more year before she goes to art college this will defiantly help her and others like her"

You means she's being paid by the taxpayer to study art now, then she'll be paid by the taxpayer to study art next, and then like every other bloody 'artist' she'll be paid by the taxpayer to 'be creative' for the following sixty years!

Ha ha ha ha!

Hoooooooooooooo

*wipes tear from eye*

[Ridgley]

Iam a tax payer too H

[Huguenot]

I know, I know, I wasn't trying to be mean. It was just very funny. :))

[Huguenot]

What I meant was that I was thinking about EMA as an investment in the future that delivers social mobility and a return to the taxpayer.

Studying art wasn't really the first thing that sprang to mind. As an artist it's incredibly unlikely that she'll ever move off benefits.

I'm sure she'll do something more productive, like graphic design or advertising ;-)