Dulwich Park Cafe

[Frisco]

"I don't think park cafes have "leases" - in the usual legal meaning of the term "lease" - because the licencee (unlike a lessee) only has access to the premises when the park is open and not 24/7."

Believe me that do, and the access issues you've detailed as no different to shopping centres that are not accessible to shop leaseholders during hours when they they are closed.

"This is food for the majority. It is in the park, it is fine. My children are overloaded with bloomin vegan birthday cake, raisins and rice cakes from everywhere else. Why must everywhere turn into a gastro location?"

Isn't it funny how people appear to go into an overdrive of misinterpretation and exaggeration when decent non-unhealthy food is mentioned. There is also plenty of open ground in the market without having to pitch at the same level as the restaurant in Dulwich Picture Gallery. The best cafe I've found in a London park was in Ravensbourne Park several years ago, which was an independent operator who provided good normal food or decent quality, but didn't rely on chips, etc to maintain its custom. It was always very busy too, and they catered for everyone.

Also, on the 'scran' issue, I wouldn't even have used the cafe when under its previous operator as somewhere to go for a cup of tea, and my godson's mother declined to let him eat anything in there (but she's bound to be too posh, she lives in Catford).

[dulwichmum]

Please Frisco, I wasn't having a go at you at all with what I was saying. I am just stating a fact about how unadventurous children can be when trying to find somewhere to feed them outside the home. I loved Grace and Favour on Northcross Road for their salads, but my babies would expire if I took them in there now (so I suppose I am relieved they no longer sell food).

It is really easy to be idealistic about how you would feed your children or even keep your house clean. If the cafe in the park is not pristine, it has a lot to do with sticky little hands and the fact that it is so well used. I too would not go for coffee in the old cafe in the park, it was horrible. But I love the cafe in the park now, the children like it, and so do their friends.

I can sense you are probably going to have a go at me now, and I am not exactly sure why. I wasn't having a go at you at all.

[SeanMacGabhann]

From what I can make out, everyone (DM and Frisco included) is broadly on the same page here - apart from AllforNun who started the conversation and didn't make a bad point... it just became a bit black and white for a while afterwards

Park cafe - not great. Could do better food. People agree. People also have kids with unambitious taste. Let's get the talented manager/chef somewhere else

[Frisco]

"Another thing to consider is where one of these establishments varies from the norm they take a huge financial risk - often of their own money. Not many are prepared to do that."

Ok, confession time. I have been the part-owner of a successful catering outlet in Surrey in the past, which had a reputation for good, value for money and healthy food. It was also in an enclosed shopping centre, which is how I know that leaseholders can't get access to retail units between certain hours, which mostly coincide, more or less, with shop opening hours. In another career, I've also been involved in advising on the letting of contracts for catering venues (cafes) in municipal parks, and they can be a little goldmine. If they're not money earners or attractive to contractors, then that tends to be involved in the rent that's charged. Councils often rely on the catering facilities within their parks to encourage a wide cross section of the community to use them. Parks are for everyone, not just kids.

[SimonM]

>>I don't think park cafes have "leases" - in the usual legal meaning of the term "lease" - because the licencee (unlike >>a lessee) only has access to the premises when the park is open and not 24/7."

>>Believe me that do, and the access issues you've detailed as no different to shopping centres that are not accessible >>to shop leaseholders during hours when they they are closed.

Well - ahem - I am not sure what system LB of Southwark employs with regard to cafes in the Borough's parks, but I was basing my assertion on what happens - or used to happen - in the LB of Lambeth, where the park cafes did indeed have 3 year licences and not full leases. (I happen to know this because at one time I was the luckless lackey who drafted them :)))

The point I was obliquely making though was that, if the current licensee isn't cutting the mustard then he/she will be out sooner rather than later, both because of the shortness of tenure but also because licencees have less statutory protection. Given the evident,raging popularity of the place they do seem to know their market however - even if the place is not much to my taste either.

[Frisco]

then that tends to be reflected* in the rent that's charged

[AllforNun]

Dear DM

Funnily enough G + F stopped doing food because to many Dulwich Mum's parked up with their Kids just to be seen in what was the first nice place in East Dulwich and nursed glasses of water and orange juices for upwards of 2hours ! -

Children are not unadventurous and it's not about being idealistic - it's just a world does exist outisde of the one you may imagine for youself.

"Invention, my dear friend, is 93% perspiration, 6% Electricity, 4% Evaporation, and 2% butterscotch ripple."

[Frisco]

"where the park cafes did indeed have 3 year licences and not full leases."

In the context of this thread, and given the similar outcomes for either leaseholders or licences in these circumstances, I'm not sure that exact terminology was required to make the point that the cafes aren't owned outright by the operators, and can be periodically put out for reassignment and/or competitive tender.

[boosboss]

Unless they're told how dissatisfied you are, how will they know? At the moment they seem to be doing rather well, judging by 'bums on seats'.

I'm sure Tarka and Domani would be only too pleased to hear your views, you can contact them via their website. Pavillion Cafe

[downsouth]

Thanks for the link - it was quite interesting.

[Frisco]

"you can contact them via their website"

While it's often hard to accurately determine standards etc from websites, if what it states is correct, the place seems a thousand times better than its predecessor. I'll look in and see, if I manage to get that far into Dulwich Park.

[AllforNun]

Stop with this bums on seats nonsense - are you advocating a Burger King for the park?

Actually if we wood panel their buiding, give them a clock tower and a weather vane it may make the notion of Burger King Vanish and hey presto a little park cafe with bums on seats and a website we can write to if we do not like it.

Oh the joy of it all.

[downsouth]

A40 - it is ultimately about what punters want. It's not a public service. People like McDonalds, Burger king Et al, that's their choice. In the same way folk like the Park Cafe. Sorry you don't but there are other options close by.

[AllforNun]

I just checked their website and I think I vanished through a wormhole into another dimension. Before it spat me back into the real world I managed to grab this.

"We serve food that is innovative but with a traditional feel. Fresh, sometimes organic, but mostly interesting. We also cater for a large section of the community offering food alternatives such as vegetarian, vegan, wheat free food, (there is a large proportion of people today with wheat and other food allergies). We are also open to suggestions, if a customer has certain dietary requirements we are happy to offer an alternative."

mmm............... yes my diet requires some freekin decent food...................please x

[Frisco]

"it is ultimately about what punters want. It's not a public service."

Untrue. Parks are a public service and the facilities operating in them contribute to that. They can also be contractually obliged to meet certain previously notified standards. This is how and why lots of local authority swimming pools/leisure centres have moved their catering outlets away from serving just fizzy drinks and chips. Local authorities can reasonably influence, or even stipulate, the type of food products that are sold from their recreational sites.

[downsouth]

No it is not a community service. You can't retrospectively make it so. I doubt very much that this outlet were given community goals as part of their lease. The council is simply interested in the income - as they always are - and a provision of reasonable food and beverages being made available to the public.

If what you say is correct I take it that the bicylce/velo sales guy and the ice cream van are also working for the public good as per dictat from LB Southark?

[Frisco]

"No it is not a community service. You can't retrospectively make it so."

"I doubt very much that this outlet were given community goals as part of their lease."

You seem to have missed that I wrote "they can also be contractually obliged to meet certain previously notified standards", which seemed to me to rule out retrospective requirements. New requirements can be included in new leases or operating licences, and often are. Rather than just doubting, you could find out for sure by asking Southwark Council a direct question about that under the Freedom of Information Act.

"The council is simply interested in the income - as they always are".

Again, that is untrue and you obviously have no knowledge of local authority procurement, and who and what can influence it. I've given the example of how leisure centre catering outlets have been changed all over the country.

"If what you say is correct I take it that the bicylce/velo sales guy and the ice cream van are also working for the public good as per dictat from LB Southark?"

If they are operating in the park with the permission of Southwark Council, or elsewhere on the basis of a contract with them, then then there is likely to be an agreement as to what can and cannot be sold.

[downsouth]

This is how and why lots of local authority swimming pools/leisure centres have moved their catering outlets away from serving just fizzy drinks and chips." So how will the ice cream man be made to provide me nutritionally balanced snacks for kids?

New standards cannot just be added. We are talking about a legal contract.

"Local authorities can reasonably influence, or even stipulate, the type of food products that are sold from their recreational sites." As said before I doubt very much. Councils and all public sector organisations are driven by income be it from central government or that levied locally. The morass of bureaucracy doesn't hide that.

I won't go asking the council as it isn't that important to me. Suffice to say I doubt there are any such caveats beyond the usual in any lease - i.e. don't mess up the goodwill or property so that the value of the property is diminshed come time to renew.

[Frisco]

"New standards cannot just be added. We are talking about a legal contract."

I'll state again that I clearly wrote, 'they can also be contractually obliged to meet certain previously notified standards'.

"So how will the ice cream man be made to provide me nutritionally balanced snacks for kids?"

Ice cream is by definition ice cream and I never suggested that all food that's considered unhealthy in excess would or should be banned from parks and outlets in them. However, the standard of products retailed in parks can be specified in a contract. Plus, lots of ice cream vendors these days sell other things from their vans besides ice cream, such as hot-dogs and other similar items. An agreement between a council and a retail contractor could specify exactly what can be sold. While Southwark Council may not see such tight stipulation as a viable option for its leisure outlets on certain sites, organisations like the Royal Parks impose very tight regulations on contractors and what can be sold on their property.

Anyway, you clearly have your view and I have mine, and it appears that we have exhausted the possibility of agreement.

[downsouth]

From my knowledge of Southwark council they have very different requirements than the Royal parks, but as you say this is something of an impasse.

[Frisco]

"From my knowledge of Southwark council they have very different requirements than the Royal parks, but as you say this is something of an impasse."

I also thought I'd indicated that when I wrote: "While Southwark Council may not see such tight stipulation as a viable option for its leisure outlets on certain sites"

Also, the work I've done in this area in the past has been for a local authority not that dissimilar to Southwark, other than it has a higher CPA rating.

[downsouth]

It was an echo of your previous comment aka agreeance.

[SimonM]

>>I'm not sure that exact terminology was required to make the point that the cafes aren't owned outright by the >>operators, and can be periodically put out for reassignment and/or competitive tender.<<

Er beg to differ - and at the risk of getting boringly technical - but if the cafe operator had a proper commercial lease rather than just a licence then they'd have a good deal more security and be much harder to get rid of :))

[DG]

Well I must admit when I take my little boy there, he invariably has egg and chips, as he occasionally has as a treat. As it's quite expensive, I like to get something I know he likes. I am quite fond of their veggy breakfasts, myself, despite being a pretty healthy eater usually.

What is good about the cafe is: free tap water, good quality real icecream, and fruit slush made with real fruit and no colourings. They also sell fruit and dried fruit. They also do meals like soup, pasta etc for both adults and kids. It's easy to get a healthy meal there if you want.

Can't see what the fuss is about. They also provide toys.

[citizenED]

Have to say that the Pavilion Cafe is one of my many local haunts - and I love the place. It's a beautiful building, they have Art on the walls and a place for kids to play, the tables and chairs are solid and comfortable and a decent size - they have two large toilets (and there is the park toilet block just few steps away if you are desperate) and they even have a child-free zone (lovely since I admit it can be a little like eating in a Kindergarten at times) and as DG says you can eat healthy there if you want.

Who can complain about the quality of food in such a place?

Does anyone know of a cafe in a park that is any better - last time I went to the one in Brockwell Park it made me realise how good the Dulwich Park one is.

citizen