Child-free pubs, bars, cafes, restaurants?

[James]

Domitianus, you have my sympathy. And I am a parent! The incredible thing is that the middle-class parents are, if anything, worse than the chavs. A romantic evening at my fave Indian restaurant was ruined by a group of kids literally running around the restaurant screaming. When one of the parents intervened I thought a good telling-off was on the cards. But to my amazement he lifted one of the kids up (who looked about 6 years old) and playfully shook him around, upside down - winding him up even more. The adults were a bunch of beardy intellectual types who should have known better. Some people seem to think that we should all enjoy their little darlings as much as they do. A bit of discipline and respect for others wouldn't go amiss.

Related pet hate is the classic unloading of the people carrier into the middle of the road, blocking & completely oblivious to the traffic. A favourite of ED's yummy mummies and daddies - as if they are somehow more important than everyone else.

[Domitianus]

James, I absolutely agree. I thought I was going insane and wondered if it was just middle-class bashing on my part but that seems to be exactly the group that is most to blame! Perhaps there is a liberal, modern-parent notion that it is unacceptable to discipline or reign-in children as this crushes the little darlings' creative spirit. The truth is, as most child care experts would agree, that children REQUIRE discipline and boundaries and that the absence of these can be a factor in the development of childhood anxiety disorders. Children can be encouraged to develop, explore, indulge in their uniqueness and creativity whilst simultaneously learning respect and self-control.

And equally I agree it IS this "My children are more important than you" mentality that seems to underpin it. Fundamentally, therefore, a lack of respect for others who are put-out, frustrated and disturbed by the inconsiderate self-indulgence we have discussed.

[DaveR]

It's not only non-parents who object to kids running riot. It's difficult to tell your own child to sit still and not shout when they can see other kids having the time of their lives.

Babies, however, cannot be told to be quiet, and do cry, for all sorts of reasons, often through no fault of the 'carer', and sometimes when the 'carer' has just sat down with a coffee for the first time in weeks. A little understanding may be called for.

Incidentally, I have never seen any babies/children in Inside 72 at any time.

[Domitianus]

Hi Dave,

Am more than happy to offer consideration in those awkward and unavoidable situations. Sometimes it can't be helped and children (praticularly babies) are unpredictable. It's all about balance but I just think at the moment the balance has gone too far in one direction in many cases. Has anyone seen the new link about a child friendly cafe opening?

[*Bob*]

Domitianus. We've had this thread before.

James. We've heard that story before.

My pet hate (well, er, one of them) is how all these oft-repeated bits and pieces (wheeled out in an 'I'm only arskin' a reeeasonable question aint I?' sort-of way are merely the first trickles of yet another 'spoilt middle classes' yawn-fest.

Check-out the language in your post James.. I mean, really..

middle class / little darlings / beardy intellectuals / people carrier / yummy mummies and daddies

[Domitianus]

Maybe these things constantly need to be said as they are a constant characteristic of ED?

[*Bob*]

If you must.. but you might as well just start your thread title with "spoiled middle-class Mums and Dads and their equally spoiled brats piss me right off and I wish there was somewhere I could go to get away from them".

That way we could save everyone having to go through the motions.

[James]

I'm quite flattered that you remember my stories Bob!

Yes, I guess we have heard this sort of thing before. But I suppose it's the nature of a forum where people dip in and out now and again that there will be repetition (how many times has someone bemoaned the lack of a local Italian restaurant... and been directed to Si Mangia!?)

[*Bob*]

It was an enjoyable story. The scene was well-described.

It's just that, reading the day-to-day postings here, you'd be forgiven for thinking that the same scene was repeated every day from pub opening until last orders in every bar and restaurant in SE22.

The majority of us (and by *us*, I mean, parents in SE22) do not allow their children to repeatedly bang spoons on tables and run riot in restaurants.

[Ant]

I really haven't seen anything like the scenes that have been described. Ever. Maybe I don't go out enough.

[Asset]

Inside 72 has a policy of no children I believe so you can always go there.

why oh why oh WHY does it have to come down to class????

I have seen plenty of oik kids running around places and plenty of MC kids sitting being well behaved.

As someone (Ant poss) said earlier, kids behave well at some times and not so well at others and as was pointed out before if there are other kids running riot it can be difficult to get yours not to do so (when at an age where reasoning does not work - ever tried reasoning with a 3 year old? Don't bother.)

[*Bob*]

Asset Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> why oh why oh WHY does it have to come down to

> class????

A mother who appears comfortably off ie, seemingly a non-worker, having a spot of brunch, a glass of wine, shopping for knick-knacks, chattering on the phone with pals and generally appearing to have an easy life will become an immediate object of envy, targeted by those who are irritated by their seemingly easy life.

So when their child bangs said spoon on table, it's the straw which breaks the camel's back. When they're still in a pub after 7pm with a pram, it's tantamount to rubbing everybody else's nose in it.

[susyp]

I have had many a nice meal spoiled by badly behaved brats... i am quite happy to see children in restaurants. Just not ones that run round and round my table screaming. If they can't sit still at the table- don;t take them out. Avoid The Green on a Sunday lunchtime. In fact I don;t go out at all for Sunday lunch - my experience at The Green was too painful. Plus when we complained the charming "daddy" threatened to "knock us through that wall into tomorrow" for suggesting that his daughter was being a tad annoying bouncing on the settee right behind our table and making our table shake.

It's not about class, just parents that don't give a damm about anyone else.

[*Bob*]

I agree. Whether children are well-behaved or not is nothing to do with class at all.

My point is that on this forum, you will observe (from the associated language usually found within the postings) that it is the MC children and their parents who usually tend to invoke the most bile.

[Domitianus]

"A mother who appears comfortably off ie, seemingly a non-worker, having a spot of brunch, a glass of wine, shopping for knick-knacks, chattering on the phone with pals and generally appearing to have an easy life will become an immediate object of envy, targeted by those who are irritated by their seemingly easy life.

So when their child bangs said spoon on table, it's the straw which breaks the camel's back. When they're still in a pub after 7pm with a pram, it's tantamount to rubbing everybody else's nose in it."

Believe me Bob, there are very few in East Dulwich that I feel envious of. Some of them have assets and money I would like but it really ends there. Still, I guess it must be very comforting to assume that any time someone criticises you it is a sign of jealousy. I must remember that trick and use it myself every time I am subject to criticism. Here goes. Everyone who objects to irresponsible parenting being criticised is actually jealous of the lifestyles of people who does not have the drain on time, energy, freedom and finance that comes with having children. Hey! Whatdya know? It works!

My point about the child being in the bar at an unlawful time was a response to someone who said that bars in ED tend to be child free in the evenings. My point was to illustrate simply that this is not invariably the case and that the staff and proprietors of local hostelries seem frightened to approach parents of noisy children even when the presence of said children is in breach of the licensing laws and clearly distressing to the child itself. I know of several local retailers who are driven to distraction by children being allowed to run around their shops/cafes/bars etc without supervision but are afraid to intervene in case they are subjected to some sort of economic boycott due to being perceived as unfriendly to families. Perhaps you don't allow your children to misbehave in public and that is a credit to you but, unfortunately, my own experience, comments on this thread and comments on other recent threads suggest that many parents do. That is all I am saying.

[lozzyloz]

Seeking recomendations on somewhere that is less child friendly seems a fairly reasonable request.

However the behavioural problem is not a class issue but more a cultural one. It seems in this country we seem to lean towards separating children from adults rather than encouraging more integration as we see on Continental Europe. It's absolutely normal to see families in restaurants well into the evening, especially in Spain and Italy. Perhaps if we integrated our children into more aspects of our lives instead of this Victorian "seen but not heard attitude" we'd suffer far less from some of the cultural problems the UK seems to lead the way on (teen alcoholics, teen single mothers, drug abuse etc, etc). I often see people looking uncomfortable around kids, scared to show emotions like smiling back, playing or even telling them off because they're afraid someone will think they're a paedo.

[Domitianus]

lozzyloz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Seeking recomendations on somewhere that is less

> child friendly seems a fairly reasonable request.

>

> However the behavioural problem is not a class

> issue but more a cultural one. It seems in this

> country we seem to lean towards separating

> children from adults rather than encouraging more

> integration as we see on Continental Europe. It's

> absolutely normal to see families in restaurants

> well into the evening, especially in Spain and

> Italy. Perhaps if we integrated our children into

> more aspects of our lives instead of this

> Victorian "seen but not heard attitude" we'd

> suffer far less from some of the cultural problems

> the UK seems to lead the way on (teen alcoholics,

> teen single mothers, drug abuse etc, etc). I often

> see people looking uncomfortable around kids,

> scared to show emotions like smiling back, playing

> or even telling them off because they're afraid

> someone will think they're a paedo.

There is a lot of truth there Lozzy. I guess it doesn't help interaction though when people have experiences like the earlier poster who appears to have been threatened by making a reasonable request for children to be calmed down a bit. I know that prolly isn't typical but there does seem to be a particularly British thing about reposnding hostilely to criticism of our own children even when it is justified.

[*Bob*]

Dom,

The point was a general one, not a personal dig at you.

If you can honestly tell me, hand on heart, that you wouldn't be just that wee bit more annoyed about a 'ED lady of leisure' allowing her little precious to bang a spoon on the table next to you whilst she sipped Chablis and yapped on the phone about her Ocado order - than you would about an downtrodden working mother - then fair enough.

I won't believe you.. but fair enough.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Is this thread still about ED specifically or have we wandered off the path and headed for the lounge?

Enquiring administrators want to know...

[RosieH]

Linda Robson from Birds of a Feather once ran over my foot quite vigorously with her pram in selfridges with nary an apology, and she's proper common.

However, I'm sure there is something in the fact that, rightly or wrongly, when it's an ED yummy mummy guzzling chablis while little Tristram runs riot, the perception is that she feels a smug middle class sense of entitlement to behave without regard for others. In that situation, I confess I'd probably judge her more harshly than I would a mum struggling to get her pram and three rowdy kids and all her shopping onto the bus outside Morrisons before the driver shuts the doors. Not in the least to do with envy, more thinking she's got all the time in the world to sit on her pilates-toned arse, but none to teach her children good manners.

Manners cost nowt, as my old nan used to say.

[Scruffy Mummy]

Interesting how the yummy daddies seem to have gotton off scot free in this whole debate eh??

Most parents I know are highly embarrassed when their kids kick off in public places and try to get them out of there are quickly as possible!

I have some lines of behaviour that musn't be crossed for my sprog - running around in cafe's or resaurtants isn't on - particularly when people are carrying hot drinks! If a tantrum is coming on, it's time to grab a coffee and go outside!

Yet, in order to keep sprog amused and from be a pain, we've played games like spot the bus or the taxi out the window in Cafe Nero. Harmless and fun you might think. Last week, I was subjected to the dirtiest look from a young woman several table able every time sprog said 'look bus!' in a slightly loud voice (but not a shout or scream). I tried to get him to speak more softly and he did tone it down - but then I realised that it was something about our mere being anywhere near in her space that was annoying her.

Anyway, some people are really rude and inconsiderate and they have kids. Some people are really rude and inconsiderate and they don't have kids. Really rude people are annoying - whatever there class, creed, ethnicity, or status as parent/non parent. End of story.

[Domitianus]

-- moved topic --

[SeanMacGabhann]

moved to The Lounge as the topic has moved away from ED specific issues and has returned (once again) to familiar class/yummy mummy yakkery (entertaining tho it may be)

[pk]

is it not the case that once you get enough people in a pub, be they parents, children or people looking for a child-free environment, some of them will be badly behaved or behave in a way that offends others?

it's just the way of the world - but to generalise to all in a category isn't really valid

[Brendan]

Hath Sean been bestowed with the power to cast that which is errant of topic into the lounge?