"While you were out" -- Royal Mail false delivery attempts

[Sue]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

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> very few private sector jobs are less than 40

> hours

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Where do you get that figure from? Is that 40 working hours, or 40 hours including breaks?

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> The point is that NO postal workers should be

> doing this

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No of course they shouldn't. No employee anywhere should be doing things they shouldn't, including going on non-work related forums when they should be working, taking stationery for personal use, going shopping in work time on their way back from a meeting etc etc..

Let s/he who is without sin cast the first stone.

The Royal Mail, like any employer, is not going to be able to stamp out completely all wrongdoing by its employees. It used to be (maybe still is) the largest employer in the UK, with over 180,000 non-management staff.

Of course it will take customer service issues seriously, but it can hardly expect no bad eggs amongst so many employees.

And having groundless accusations flung about, like the OP in this thread, doesn't help.

[DJKillaQueen]

Where do you get that figure from? Is that 40 working hours, or 40 hours including breaks?

You can find all the stats on the Labour Force Survey that is updated every three months.

Let s/he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Most people do the job they are paid to do....there is NO excuse for not delivering items a customer has paid for delivery of.

[Jeremy]

40 working hours per week is really quite normal. Many "professional" (for want of a better word) jobs demand much more, even at the lowest rung.

You would have grounds for complaining if you spent the whole time carrying a heavy sack of letters, but otherwise... I'm not so sure.

[Sue]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

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> Most people do the job they are paid to

> do....there is NO excuse for not delivering items

> a customer has paid for delivery of.

xxxxxxx

Nobody is saying that there is.

What I'm saying is that you have to put this in the context of the size of the operation and the number of staff involved, rather than tarring every postie with the same brush.

I feel like I'm banging my head against a brick wall here, however.

[McCatllar]

Excellent and helpful response.

THanks

[Alex K]

@Sue: "And having groundless accusations flung about, like the OP in this thread, doesn't help."

As the OP, let me take exception to... well, to a groundless accusation flung in a manner that seems very haphazard.

Sue, please: Go back and read the original post. It is, I trust that you will find on re-reading, not an accusation, but an accounting of an observation (a postie putting something through a door without attempting to alert residents to a delivery); a careful stipulation that I did, and do, not know what was put through the door; and an enquiry of forum participants -- Is it a shared perception that delivery attempts by Royal Mail personnel often are faked?

The response of forum participants has been, I think, overall: Yes; we believe that they often are.

Several anecdotes to that effect have been shared. These anecdotes, these experiences, would not be grounds for an accusation. (No accusation, again, was made.) Assuredly, however, they are grounds for a suspicion.

Was the suspicion warranted? On the basis of community experience, yes. Was it correct? On the say-so of the postie, no. I'm happy to leave it there.

**

Twirly's suggestion -- home delivery to be paid for "extra" -- sounds a good one. Big Society idea-scoopers, you read it in the EDF first!

[Sue]

Alex K Wrote:

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>

> Was the suspicion warranted? On the basis of

> community experience, yes. Was it correct? On

> the say-so of the postie, no. I'm happy to leave

> it there.

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You may be happy to leave it there, but you have in effect called a postman who came onto this thread to explain the specific situation (and not surprisingly hasn't been back since) a liar.

I think that's disgraceful.

[EDDORDC]

I?ve been away with the family - allow me to fill you in regarding pay and conditions.

The working day is 6am to 2pm with a 40 minute break at 9:30am. The workload is frequently so heavy that people continue working beyond 2pm (despite not being paid to go over). If you see a postman at 5pm still delivering the chances are that it?s a casual hired in from either another part of London or outside of the capital altogether. In other words, someone with little or no familiarity with the area being given a walk (the term for a post round) and pushed out of the door to get on with it. This practice dates from when the wonderful Mr Crozier took over the Royal Mail in 2003. Before then, postmen and women worked a six day week so you had the same person delivering day in, day out. At that time I worked in another industry and I could almost set my watch by the postman?s arrival each morning. You also had a second delivery Monday to Friday then ? something else Mr Crozier felt the need to do away with. Mr Crozier was rewarded with a seven-figure salary package by the way?

Royal Mail?s problem is that it is bound by the universal delivery service ? ie it will deliver a letter anywhere in the UK next day for the cost of a stamp. The logistics of keeping such an operation viable inevitably mean inefficiencies are present somewhere along the line. At the same time bizarre government-enforced competition rules mean that Royal Mail delivers competitors? mail at a loss ? when you get letters that have neither a stamp or a franking but instead a little logo where the stamp should be (such as UK Mail or TNT) the delivery cost is being met by Royal Mail while the profit is taken by the company concerned. Would you subsidise a competitor in this way? Try asking DHL for a quote to send a letter to the Isles of Scilly, for instance. When you?ve got your breath back consider this: whatever fee DHL charges you, the chances are it would then simply give the letter to Royal Mail to deliver.

This leaves Royal Mail in the unenviable position of being both a public service and a business ? and can?t succeed at both. Businesses are run for profit and have to constantly examine costs and how to cut them. Royal Mail does this too: each year we are asked to make efficiency savings. When I joined in 2007 there were 22 walks in the East Dulwich office; there are now 20. The number of houses, flats and businesses hasn?t gone down; in fact, it?s gone up (new builds, conversions of existing properties into multiple residencies etc) ? so we?re having to cover larger areas. Most of the walks now top 600 points of delivery; one is close to 800. That?s a lot of front doors, pavements, stairs and so on. I?m not trying defend the very specific allegations made on this site, I?m just trying to give you an idea of the workload. Factor in the propensity for human error and there are bound to be instances when the service is less than 100% reliable.

Royal Mail does have spies that covertly monitor anyone suspected of behaviour likely to bring the company into disrepute; in my time there so far I?ve seen three people marched out of the office with a police escort.

I would urge anyone complaining on this site to go to Silvester Road and inform the manager. The current incumbent is highly competent and would investigate any allegations and, if necessary, discipline the culprit. I would add that if any colleague of mine was undermining the Royal Mail?s reputation then I would be glad to see the back of them.

Something frequently mentioned on doorsteps but oddly not here is the door-to-door leaflets that you receive each week. You might know them better as junk mail, but we are contractually obliged to deliver them. You must surely all remember the strike this time last year? As part of the settlement of the strike it was agreed that all door-to-door leaflets would be classed in the same way as regular mail. This means that failure to deliver them carries the charge of Wilful Delay (exactly the same as not delivering a letter) which is a serious disciplinary procedure. This is the business side of Royal Mail again, being paid by the companies advertising to deliver their leaflets. At the moment the number of different leaflets per week is capped at a maximum of five but that figure could go higher. We have no say in the matter - we have to deliver them ? so please don?t take out your frustration on us regarding this.

This is turning into a bit of an essay, but I want to make a few more points:

The East Dulwich office is now open until 8pm Wednesdays and 2pm on Saturdays. There are no extra staff to cover this - the guys doing the Wednesday shift still get in before 6am and work through until 8pm. Yes, they get overtime but they work a 14 hour day for it and then have to arrive before 6am again on Thursday.

Recorded Delivery doesn?t mean delivery at the recorded address; it means a delivery that is signed for (ie recorded). If no one is in to sign for it then the postie has no option but to leave a card.

The mooted privatisation that a few of you have been crowing about will not necessarily lead to a better service. No private company could make a big profit and honour the universal delivery service. All the bidders will swear blind that the UDS will remain ? I would give it 12 months maximum before they then retract the pledge claiming ?costs?. Once it?s gone, that will be it, forever.

Any privatisation would inevitably lead to a large number of redundancies. Is this something to be triumphant about? Would you wander into a pub in Corby and start braying about how courageous British Steel was in closing down its plant there?

Incidentally, Royal Mail is already paving the way for how things will be post-privatisation. Not many of the people who have joined after me have managed to attain permanent status. Instead they are now given fixed short-term contracts which are then repeatedly renewed. This prevents them from gaining the security and advantages that permanent status accrues. It also makes them far easier to dismiss; in short some of the standard private sector incentives that keep employees on their toes and looking over their shoulders.

The pensions deficit is not the fault of the postmen and women who have had their contributions taken out of every wage packet; it is solely down to bad management. If you had been paying into a pension fund all your working life (as many have) then it would not unreasonable to expect something in your retirement. To suggest that posties? pensions are a burden on UK taxpayers is at best sloppy, at worst Tory propaganda. What about the millions paid to Mr Crozier when he was a public servant ? or were they value for money?

By the way, Alex K, if your OP was so supposedly impartial, why did you choose the particular thread title?

And, I ask you again, why did you not check with your neighbour before making the OP? Have you been and checked with them since? Or are facts and evidence mere nuisances to someone so clearly further up the food chain than the rest of us?

EDDORDC

[Sue]

Well said.

ETA: I await the OP's reply to the last paragraph with interest.

[Penguin68]

Out of interest, when the Post Office (which then included the Telecommunications Division) was moved from the Home Civil Service to being a nationalised industry, the pension fund (which had hitherto been the standard civil service one, i.e. non contributory and non funded except through current taxation) was vested as 2.5% Consuls at face value - when these were actually then trading at a huge discount to face value. This was inevitably going to lead to an eventual pension deficit (it was as if every pound you had 'saved' was suddenly worth only 17p). This deficit was exacerbated as the Post Office took a number of pension holidays when the value of the fund (at a time of bull markets) exceeded the immediate sums necessary to fund pensions (this was before FRS17 changed the valuation basis of pension funding) - which meant that while employees kept on contributing 6% of their salaries, the employer didn't. (There were taxation rules which meant that employers were not allowed, even had they wanted to, to over-fund pension funds beyond what was then deemed necessary).

When BT was sold off from the Post Office the government had to indemnify the sale against pension fund default - an indemnity which has just been ratified by the Courts - amazingly for all employees and not just those in employment at the time of privatisation, which had previously been the Government's worst case scenario.

So the problems with the Post Office pension fund are absolutely not to be placed at the door of the employees, and probably not even at the door of the management, but were a function of the way that the Post Office was initially nationalised out of the Civil Service.

[pk]

EDDORDC Wrote:

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> why did you not check with your neighbour before making the OP?

probably because if he went round and said 'i've noted that "the driver of Royal Mail van LB05 LLJ has just now -- 1320, Saturday 16 October -- hopped out of his vehicle, walked briskly to [your] door and... has not rung, has not knocked, has only pushed a slip of paper through the cache-sexe on the letterbox and pootled off again" can you tell me what he delivered?' they'd probably tell him it was none of his business and to p**s off (quite rightly)

and as for not ringing or knocking being odd - it's what my postman does everyday when he delivers letters

thanks for your useful contribution tho EDDORDC - good to have someone with relevant knowledge contributing

[Sue]

pk Wrote:

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> EDDORDC Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > why did you not check with your neighbour before

> making the OP?

>

> probably because if he went round and said 'i've

> noted that "the driver of Royal Mail van LB05 LLJ

> has just now -- 1320, Saturday 16 October --

> hopped out of his vehicle, walked briskly to door

> and... has not rung, has not knocked, has only

> pushed a slip of paper through the cache-sexe on

> the letterbox and pootled off again" can you tell

> me what he delivered?' they'd probably tell him it

> was none of his business and to p**s off (quite

> rightly)

>

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But the point is, the OP has made assumptions, has started a thread based on those assumptions, and then when they are shown to be incorrect persists in spreading false information based on those assumptions.

I can see no possible reason why a postie should come on here to talk about what actually happened if in fact he or someone else had done what the OP is complaining of, can you?

[Loz]

This leaves Royal Mail in the unenviable position of being both a public service and a business ? and can?t succeed at both.

A really good point, this. Sometimes we have decide what we want in this regard - public transport is a similar issue.

Personally, I think that in the age of the email the letter is slowly going the way of the telegram, so the UDS's time may be up. Royal Mail should be released of it's shackles and allowed to compete properly.

[kford]

Loz Wrote:

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> This leaves Royal Mail in the unenviable position

> of being both a public service and a business ?

> and can?t succeed at both.

>

> A really good point, this. Sometimes we have

> decide what we want in this regard - public

> transport is a similar issue.

>

> Personally, I think that in the age of the email

> the letter is slowly going the way of the

> telegram, so the UDS's time may be up. Royal Mail

> should be released of it's shackles and allowed to

> compete properly.

Good points - but in the age of internet shopping, parcel delivery is burgeoning

[ClareC]

Anyone have Sylvester Road sorting officee's number? Quick search on here and yell didn't find it.

[indiepanda]

Found this on a web site called www.mylocalservices.co.uk

55 Silvester Rd

Dulwich

London

SE22 9PA

Tel: 0844 474 0395

[ClareC]

Thanks indiepanda.

Just tried the number and it goes through to the general Royal Mail customer service number. Does anyone have the direct line number for the Sorting Office on Sylvester Road?

I did a search on here and lots of people refer to calling them but haven't spotted number :-(

[indiepanda]

http://www.bview.co.uk/listing/1835632/Royal-Mail

On site above found this number: 020 86931395

[dustycornishman]

I waited for a parcel first thing this morning and suddenly my housemate gives me a "your item is waiting for you at East Dulwich Delivery office" card. Neither of us heard the doorbell or a knock.

I phoned the above number (020 86931395) and it wouldn't take incoming calls.

On phoning to see if there was any chance I could pick it up today the Telephone operator at Royal mail said this was a parcel force letter and won't actually be at the east dulwich station, it will be in Charlton! He said if I hadn't have phoned him I wouldn't have known this.

There is no record of a parcel force delivery office/depot anywhere on the card, or even a notice to say it was from them. It was a Royal Mail letter.

What is going on?

[cnn1951]

Good Afternoon.

well we have the same problem, a parcel was not delivered , and Sylvester road office could not find it, and it was recorded delivery needed to be signed for.

Also we have had mail not being delivered to us in abbotswood road east dulwich, and our post goes to someone else in abbotswood road , bless them for always putting our post through our letter box, god help us , too many foreigners who cant read.

[Sue]

cnn1951 Wrote:

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> god help us , too many foreigners who cant read.

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I think you'll find that Royal Mail doesn't employ people who "can't read" in jobs where reading is necessary, whether they are "foreigners" or not.