Please read and support your firefighters!!!!

[laincoubert]

Apologies for my slur, emotive subject but I will not resort to insults again! And yes I can see mms posts are thoughtful, I was just frustrated.

[laincoubert]

MM. There is no dispute over rest periods. Management currently allow stand down between 00:00 and 0700. This time can be used for sleeping between calls. In their 12/12 proposals they will allow ffs to sleep between 00:00 and 0600, not a big difference and not the cause of any argument. Therefore like it or not, 24 hr shifts, 12 hour shifts or 13s would include stand down rest periods and ffs would sleep. Like any other brigade round the globe.

So

[laincoubert]

So the night shift currently Is a working shift already, they are required to perform duties between 1800 and 00:00 when stand down begins. But as management know, by around 21:00 ffs can run out of meaningful chores to keep busy with between 999 calls. They do training and community work however between 1800 and around 2100 some times later. So the fbu proposal to start the Night shift earlier, at 1600, would allow full scale drills to be carried out at the start of nights plus all the other extra chores required of them.

Does this help explain how the fbu alternative is equal too ifnot better than 12s!! With the advantage of maintaining morale of these men and women

[laincoubert]

And as for a fbu presentation have no idea. They probably doo not have quite as good spin department as the mansgement

[*Bob*]

When you're losing a PR battle against Brian Coleman, you have to start asking yourself serious questions.

[laincoubert]

"When you're losing a PR battle against Brian Coleman, you have to start asking yourself serious questions"

LOL

[Mick Mac]

Mick Mac Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Im with Loz.

>

> I could not believe it when i heard the FF were to

> strike on the most dangerous night of the year.

>

> This is blackmail and must surely lose public

> support.

>

> The publics respect was your greatest asset and

> this could potentially be lost.

>

> Ff will probably change their mind close to 5 nov

> but this will annoy the public more as you have

> messed with their emotions.

It does now seem to be a game of blackmail. Choosing 5 November as the strike date is of course no coincidence and can be seen as using the threat of peoples lives.

Of course the FBU see it differently - its the Government that is risking peoples lives :

But Andy Gilchrist, general secretary of the FBU said the Government had six days to settle the dispute before any lives were put at risk when the strikes start next Tuesday.

"They need to stop morally blackmailing professional firefighters' and start genuine talks over pay."

[Edited to remove old article - but it does seem like the same old same old .....does it not.]

As for getting rid of fireworks as part of the solution well it seems sensible if a bit killjoy. Strong laws on fireworks safety and information on how to operate them safely is what we need.

[Moflo]

IainC makes good points I think. Striking on 5th will obviously divide public opinion, I would have thought that the FF's are aware of this but feel that they must bring home their position and show what will be happening if the cuts in service that will be inevitable become reality. If you go onto the FBU website I am sure details of the dispute are explained.

I, as a mother of a firefighter can only express how he feels, he has wanted this profession since he was little, it took him three years to get through the procedure and training. Do youo think he would throw all that away just to be militant and try and stick it to management. He is on the front line and is happy to be so, this system has worked for over 30 years, their productivity has exceeded managements demands. We all accept that changes sometimes need to be made and FF's are no exception, they know shift changes are inevitable and are willing to discuss this, but to be threatend with the sack before agreement is made then this is wrong. Dont go on saying this has been argued for 5 years because these negotiations started in June this year. there has been various mentions in the last 5 years about shift changes but no negotiations started. Again see FBU webiste. I will continue to support my son and his colleagues and hope that the public do as well, going by various support websites this is the case. Everyone has their own opinions and this is right, but so is the right to take action. All unions will use whatever means they have for maximum effect, it has always been so and I expect always will. No matter what facts and details are put on here some of you will shout them down and disagree, your right!

On an earlier note, the 24hour system works exceptionally well in US and other countries, why not here?

[SeanMacGabhann]

I'm not really proposing we ban them Mick - my tongue was in cheek. But there has been a lot of "in the current climate, firefighters need to realise" posturing from various parties and I just wondered where spending money not just on fireworks but on the amount of emergency services needed to suppor that night fitted in with that

But I'm only wondering. I'm not serious like.... ;-)

[Mick Mac]

Its a good night provided we have the support services on hand. Its a poor show that the firefighters are using it for their own ends and trying to then blame government for playing with lives.

Fireworks were banned in northern ireland when i was growing up and noone missed them. Organised events only.

[Emerson Crane]

Moflo Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> IainC makes good points I think. Striking on 5th

> will obviously divide public opinion, I would have

> thought that the FF's are aware of this but feel

> that they must bring home their position and show

> what will be happening if the cuts in service that

> will be inevitable become reality. If you go onto

> the FBU website I am sure details of the dispute

> are explained.

> I, as a mother of a firefighter can only express

> how he feels, he has wanted this profession since

> he was little, it took him three years to get

> through the procedure and training. Do youo think

> he would throw all that away just to be militant

> and try and stick it to management. He is on the

> front line and is happy to be so, this system has

> worked for over 30 years, their productivity has

> exceeded managements demands. We all accept that

> changes sometimes need to be made and FF's are no

> exception, they know shift changes are inevitable

> and are willing to discuss this, but to be

> threatend with the sack before agreement is made

> then this is wrong. Dont go on saying this has

> been argued for 5 years because these negotiations

> started in June this year. there has been various

> mentions in the last 5 years about shift changes

> but no negotiations started. Again see FBU

> webiste. I will continue to support my son and his

> colleagues and hope that the public do as well,

> going by various support websites this is the

> case. Everyone has their own opinions and this is

> right, but so is the right to take action. All

> unions will use whatever means they have for

> maximum effect, it has always been so and I expect

> always will. No matter what facts and details are

> put on here some of you will shout them down and

> disagree, your right!

> On an earlier note, the 24hour system works

> exceptionally well in US and other countries, why

> not here?

Excellent, I couldn't agree more. I have close friends who are FF's and they, like your son, are not doing this because they are militants, they are doing it to stand up for what they believe in, and given the choice, many of us in the same position would do likewise.

[Marmora Man]

For information the FBU case for an 8/16 shift patter is here.

The management papers are here and here.

Read and compare on an objective basis.

[laincoubert]

Mick mack. Did you just quote andy gilchrist!!!!!! Who is andy gilchrist in this dispute? I thought he had been jettisoned long ago

[DJKillaQueen]

I just want to make one point moflo. Many of us do the jobs we've always wanted to do and some of us train for far more than three years and on no pay whilst doing so. I find this kind of arguement emotive and totally irrelevant. Pay is always a difficult one. We have a minimum wage and most of us would like to be paid more. I think I read in an earlier post that firemen can earn ?37K in London. Well that's above the average wage and more than most earn. I do feel that sometimes there is a lack of perspective from unions with regards to salary. The transport union are the same. Some tube drivers earn very good salaries up to ?40K....and yet they feel they don't earn enough. You can not expect a public where many really are underpaid and undervalued by their employers to be sympathetic in every case.

Personally any emergency service using strike action is never going to get my support. The only people risking anyone's lives are those professionals who choose to put them at risk by striking.

[david_carnell]

I think the FBU need to fire their current PR team and hire Sean McG. I'd support the FFs till the end of time but, dear lord, do they not know how to run marketing campaign.

As Sean points out there are some really simple points that the FBU needed to be making that it has failed miserably to do. If I was a London FF I'd be despairing at the ineptitude of my union to win public support on an issue that should have been an easy win in the current climate. Supoport for spending cuts is beginning to waver and this could have been a userful cornerstone for future disputes. Instead it will tar the FBU and London FFs for years to come with the brush of self-interest.

I sometimes despair at my brothers and sisters on the left. It makes the Kremlin look transparent.

[Mick Mac]

laincoubert Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Mick mack. Did you just quote andy gilchrist!!!!!!

> Who is andy gilchrist in this dispute? I thought

> he had been jettisoned long ago

Oh how embarrassing - I have quoted from a very old article - busyish at work you see, did not have time to look properly.

[What it does demonstrate however is that we have been here before - a number of times.]

[Moflo]

DJKW why are you back on about pay? thats not the issue is it? Being sacked before agreements are made is! Thats the nutshell, remove the threat and no strikes. Simple.

[Kbabe01]

I agree that the FBU have handled this wrong.

[DJKillaQueen]

Being sacked before agreements are made is!

And do you really think strike action is going to change that? The only thing that will cahnge that is if the management are breaking some aspect of employment law in doing so. Have the union explored if there is some angle of illegality. I'm guessing they have and found there is none. After all it is not the first time an employer has ended a contract only to re-advertise the same job with a differnet contract/ conditions. Happens all the time in other sectors.

Strike action is going to achive absolutely nothing - but it might cost someone their life. Well done.

[Michael Palaeologus]

"Striking on 5th will obviously divide public opinion"

NO IT WONT!! - It will unite public opinion againt the Firemen and provides management with an opportunity to portray Firemen as selfish and willing to risk lives in pursuit of their dispute.

[reggie]

Both sides are asserting their rights. One to sack, the other to strike.

The argument is about who has the power not really about changes in shift patterns.

It's testes at dawn.

The Suburban Pirate- taking moderation to the extreme

[Ridgley]

I agree with Reggie, on this one

[laincoubert]

Thankyou MM for providing the documents arguing for he FBUs 8/16 proposals and the managements alternative proposals too.

Have you or anyone else read them in detail? They are a bit long winded for me I dont have the paitence.

I have had a flick though, lingering slightly longer over the FBU proposals and in terms of achieving the required aims they both seem to cover everything. i suspect a written document supporting 9/15 would be pretty convincing too.

Can anyone tell me what is in the FBU's 8/16 that the brigade may not like? If there is no need to introduce 12/12 as a precurser to station closures and the end of the watch structure, then can anyone see why in order to immediately bring about change, improvements and and end to this stand off the brigade do not wish to accept the 8/16 proposals???

Is it not really about the hours but are do both documents include lots of strings and demands which the other side doesnt want to accept?

I wish I had the paitence to study both and compare but they really look like boring reads

[Marmora Man]

Further to your post of 08.57 - you suggest I make clueless rebukes.

Your most recent post deserves the strongest of rebukes. I place both sides of the argument on this site for you to consider but you find them too long and boring to read. By declining the opportunity to consider the two arguments you rule yourself out of the debate as your rejection means that your comments to date are based upon emotion and prejudice rather than the facts of the case.

I have read all the papers provided - I have considered the arguments presented and find the management case to be both cogent and forceful. In contrast I find the FBU arguments weak and reactive; they fail to offer much to the debate. In fact the FBU paper barely stands up as a piece of independent argument - it simply attempts, but fails, to shoot down the management case.

[Kbabe01]

Theres a suprise!