David Cameron's Conservatives are completely unelectable

[Alan Dale]

Marmora Man Wrote:

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> Alan Dale Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> >

> > I have seen similar flawed assumptions by the

> > Tories about the correlation of succesful

> > relationships and incidence of marriage. This

> is

> > frightening as their fundamental

> misunderstanding

> > of the statistics is actually shaping their

> policy

> > proposals. Luckily they are completely

> > unelectable.

>

> This assertion is based on a sample of how many

> voters Alan Dale? One, several, many or lots?

>

> Opinion polls have Tory support and Labour support

> closing with just one or two percentage point

> differences - statistically insignificant.

Marmora Man I don't have to do a Geography GCSE style survey to draw that conclusion. It is my own opinion.

Voluntary national service?! Unbelieveable straw-clutching.

[mockney piers]

How do you define an unbeleivable [sic] straw? ;-P

(I know what you mean though, hilarious)

[*Bob*]

DC was making all the right moves when he first became leader. I was even a little worried. How he managed to flush it all down the pan in such show-stopping style, I'm not quite sure.

Can you imagine Blair doing that? I think not. Therein lies the difference between a master at work and a risible no-hoper.

[ChavWivaLawDegree]

Yes but Cameron was selected to stand againt the spin-myster Blair, and now that the stolid Brown is his opponent, he's flapping about wondering what happened!

[James]

Everyone knows that mid-term polls always over-estimate support for the opposition - because people use them to register their gripes with whoever's in government. When it comes to an election, most of these people end up voting for the party in power. Unless there is a huge shift in public opinion (e.g. 1997).

So if the Tories are just a few points behind Labour, they are doing very badly indeed. They would need to be way out in front to stand a real chance.

Personally I think Cameron is losing his nerve. First there was the greenwashing, hug a hoodie & other moves to try to push the party back to the centre. Now we're lurching to the right again (together with some bizarre proposal that they will cut taxes whilst maintaining the level of public spending. Presumably they will also be introducing square circles and flying pigs.) We also have the "tacit" approval of Boris as mayor - an old-fashioned, nasty Tory masquerading as a clown. What a shambles.

The Tories' sad demise should make me happy - if it weren't for the fact that our "Labour" PM has just been singing the praises of Maggie Thatcher.

I thought we lived in a democracy!? At the moment it's more like a choice between dumb & dumber.

[Alan Dale]

*Bob* Wrote:

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> DC was making all the right moves when he first

> became leader. I was even a little worried.

I was excited by the possibility of a return to a two party system with credible opposition.

Then they stared wheeling out IDS and attacking unmarried couples and I took it a bit personally.

Now they are trying to make people volunteer for a 6 week litterpicking bootcamp.

I am now resigned to 10 years of Brown and long haul flights to the nearest supercasino.

[SeanMacGabhann]

It is very odd to think that after changing leaders so many times since 97 that the tories seem as far away from electability as ever. If polls are closing then it has more to do with labour-fatigue than anything

At least when labour were cast into the wilderness there was a sense over the ensuing years of progress being made as they moved from Kinnock to Smith and then (did we know? I think we did) Blair

But then having lived in rural Devon (which was the most shockingly conservative - in the worst way possible - place I had ever been) I know just how poisonous the tory grass roots actually is. Britain has moved on and DC may be of it but he has to get some damnably unpleasant people behind him and if he's not up to the job, well, that may speak well of him

[*Bob*]

I don't think there was any sort 'ensuing years of progress'. Labour were just waiting for a true leader to appear. Just as the Tories were before Mrs T arrived.

British politics has always been rooted in true leaders.

This is what really gets on my tits about the BUSH!-OUT! brigade. American politics has never been about true leaders. It's always been about finding someone electable and surrounding them with an army of advisors who make all the real decisions.

Getting rid of Bush would be like taking the cherry of the top of an enormous sh*t-pie.

[Alan Dale]

Kinnock did a great deal to take on the militant tendency. There were years of transition.

That said - don't change the subject until Marmora Man has had a chance to say something. How do you like this 'sample of voters' Marmora Man?

[James]

Good point Bob - I always suspected it was people like Rove, Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz making the real decisions. Which is scary as they are all like comedy villans in a children's cartoon.

Is there any such thing as conviction politics any more? Or does everyone just say whatever they think will look good as a newspaper headline?

[*Bob*]

I wouldn't disagree that he tried to face-up to the militants - but he failed.

Either you're electable or you're unelectable, just like DC. Just like IDS. Just like Hague.

As Yoda wisely said: Do, or do not. There is no try.

[SeanMacGabhann]

To stand up for politicians a leeetle bit here - when we crave "conviction" politics we seem to think we (the electorate) are divorced from this decline in political standards

As far as I can tell there aren't many conviction voters - rather, a mass of self-interested, self-contradictory consumers. Which may bit be a bad thing to some people, but it would explain why we get the politicians we do.

[James]

Which explains why we kept the Tories in for so long in the 80s. Most people hated them but thought we'd end up with more money in our pockets than if the other lot got in. Never mind that our schools, hospitals and trains were literally crumbling due to years of under-investment.

Personally I, like many people, would rather pay a bit more tax and have public services that aren't third world. The Tories seem to have finally woken up to this (doh!)

[downsouth]

I actually think DC has done quite a good job in the round. SeanMacGabhann makes the point that he has to deal with some thoroughly unpleasant characters within his grass roots. Like it or not he cannot always say what he wants to as it will simply not fly and he will face an insurrection. Before you know he'll be out on his tod. The tories will move further to the right with a new back to basics leader and we'll be stuck with Labour for another 4/5 years - no thank you.

I am all for some more right wing policies as part of a wider social contract as Blair/Brown's policies ahve been good for the economy but very bad for some neighbourhoods/communities esp. in the inner cities.

I think people overestimate Brown, yes he is statesman like and solid. Purposeful etc... but does he have what it takes beyond those TV friendly adjectives? I don't think so. He is of the same ilk as Blair and his coalition of all the talents is lamentable. He should have faith in the quality of people within his own party and if he doesn't that she be a warning to us all. Labour has run out of steam. Some years in opposition will reinvigorate them.

[Asset]

Downsouth said:

"I am all for some more right wing policies as part of a wider social contract"

can't we trace the "breakdown of society" straight to the Thatcher years?

[*Bob*]

Natural leaders say (and get) what they want - because they are natural leaders. Mrs T did it. Blair did it.

With a million/half a million (depending on whether you're marching or policing) of the electorate out on the streets in protest, Blair still got his war. And that, people, like it or not, is a leader.

DC can't even face down back-bench murmurings over a dwindling handful of Grammar Schools, for God's sake.

[downsouth]

@ Asset - Do you not think you've over simplified the issue? Why is it whenever someone says right wing you hold up Thatcher to embody everything? She was not the first person to espouse right wing principles many of which are now part of the 'progressive centre'. I am not defending Mrs T - she was the Devil incarnate in my house when i was growing up but with hindsight and education it is quite clear she did have a positive effect alongside less positive outcomes in the UK. Home ownership, deregulation these are simple things that have had a big impact - Railways excepted!!

[Doodles]

Why would the Conservatives actually want to be elected? They all earn a lot more with their other interests than they would as MPs and New Labour have been implementing their policies for years.

[downsouth]

continued... More home ownership for all I say, I believe Boris Krusty the Clown for hire Johnston has already said 'good' tenants should be encouraged to get a stake in their property and I applaud that.

What has caused societal break down? It is a bit more complicated than saying Thatcher. Personal responsiblity and family breakdown are the two biggest causes. The reasons behind them are plenty.

[Asset]

the only reason Thatcher encouraged homeownership and purchase of council housing was to stop the workers striking.

[downsouth]

I'm not talking about motivations but results. I was far too young to be interested in the detail back then but now I can see how it has helped many people to generate wealth hitherto unimaginable and also for them to take an interest/pride in their communities. Not everything is black and white.

[Asset]

really, what about the massive increase in people having their homes repossesed?

[downsouth]

Can you provide some further detail, when?

[Asset]

it was in the press recently, reposessions

[downsouth]

What has that got to do with enabling those least able to access their housing market to gain a toe hold? We are at the stage of the cycle where this will happen. There will inevitably be those whose homes will be reposessed but that is life. I would rather that than the council continued to drip feed and play nanny to millions of low wage earners.