Removing a wall - designing out the need for a Party Structure Notice

[Hickory]

Can anyone help? We'd really like to remove the supporting wall that separates our front and back living room in SE22. It's your standard Victorian terrace.

We have had a structural engineer come over and make calculations and drawings, which I don't fully understand. Unfortunately, the engineer is now AWOL so I'm stuck. They never answer calls or emails.

Our neighbours are also quite hostile, and won't agree to the Party Structure Notice. I'm trying to understand if there's a way we can remove this wall by designing out the need for a party wall notice. Can the steel beam rest on existing bricks for example? There's no need to go below current foundations.

In other words: we really want to remove the wall, but we need a way to avoid having to get a Party Structure Agreement. Please let me know if you've been in a similar position and what you did!

**Admin, I know this is the wrong place but not sure where it should go**

[James Barber]

Hi Hickory,

You'll need a Party Wall agreement but your neighbour can't just say no. They or their representative has to negotiate on the basis of structural engineering not whim. Your party wall surveyor should be explaining this all to you/them.

You may also need Planning Permission.

[Hickory]

Thanks James. I think the issue is that the neighbours will flatly refuse any discussion to negotiate. This means we would then have to foot the bill for a surveyor. I was just wondering if there was any way all all we could engineer and design a way of *not* needing to have a Party Wall Agreement.

[alex_b]

I think you're going to have to foot the bill for a surveyor. However if you just agree to use whichever surveyor they nominate you can at least keep your costs down by only having to pay for one.

[AbDabs]

There shouldn't be anything to 'negotiate', or are you also trying to get access to their property for the works construction? You have to pay for your neighbour's surveyor costs - that's only fair as it is you that wants the work done. There is no possible way of avoiding a party wall agreement and you would be mad to try. Even if you were able to find a way of designing a structurally independent means of support (i.e. not 'existing bricks' as that would definitely need an agreement), you will change the load pattern in the building which could impact on the party wall and, just as importantly, without a proper survey you run the risk of your neighbour blaming existing damage on your builders.

[Seabag]

I'm guessing you're 'trying' to avoid the neighbour, and from what you say so far re the fence, it looks like it's going to be a challenge. However, you're going to come up against them somehow along the line of the process. I wish you luck in that, maybe mediation or the option of that is possible.

[Penguin68]

A 'party wall' agreement isn't really just about the party wall - it reflects the impact that building work could potentially have on a neighbour with whom you share any structure - semi or terraced. Other than building a fully structural wall (with proper foundations) within your own property to substitute the party wall and act as support to an RSJ (which would be loony) I can't see a way round this. Your neighbour cannot stop you doing work which doesn't require planning permission (which is entirely different either from meeting building regulations or permitted development) - but he/ she can require you to undertake a proper survey of their property (with a surveyor or structural engineer they agree to) - at your expense - and require you or your builder to put right any subsequent (and consequent) damage.

You may need a solicitor to explain to them their legal position (which is that they don't have one when it comes to stopping your work, but that they have rights regarding that work) - which will be more expense.

[red devil]

If you've served a Party Wall Notice to your neighbour, they have to respond within a certain time-frame, to say whether they agree to a joint surveyor, or separate surveyors, either way it is at your cost. If they don't reply to the Notice then you can go ahead and appoint a joint surveyor. If your Party Wall surveyor didn't issue their Notice by Recorded Delivery, perhaps worthwhile to re-issue one, otherwise your neighbour will just say they didn't receive it....

[Penguin68]

However note that the surveyor(s) will need access to their property to undertake a proper survey (and note the pre-work condition of their property) - without that they could claim that any existing damage was down to you and you would be unable to readily disprove that (as you could with a survey of their property).

[bonaome]

Contact Andrew Karoly here http://www.partywalls-london.co.uk/index.html - he'll have a chat with you and explain what your options are and there are template letters on the website etc. I found him via this forum and used him when we did a loft conversion. He was extremely helpful and his rates were very reasonable - certainly small beer when compared with the cost of knocking through a reception. PM me for more details if you like.

[Ghlpc]

I'm not a builder, so excuse if ive got this wrong, but can't you perhaps leave a column against the wall for the rsj to sit on, instead of it going into the party wall?

So you take out most of the wall but leave a section at the party wall end, whatever size building regs deems wide enough to be able to take the weight of the beam..?

[Jeremy]

Ghlpc Wrote:

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> I'm not a builder, so excuse if ive got this

> wrong, but can't you perhaps leave a column

> against the wall for the rsj to sit on, instead of

> it going into the party wall?

I thought the same thing. But I guess the danger is that if it still causes indirect damage, e.g. by resulting in structural movement (or if the neighbour "claims" it has) then you're on shaky ground.

Of course there's also the issue of whether the remaining column of 120+ yr old brick would be capable of supporting the RSJ! And you're going to go through all that effort/expense, for a result which is far from ideal.

[Penguin68]

I am not a structural engineer, but I believe that an RSJ resting on a structural wall displaces the weight of the structure it supports throughout the supporting wall (and not just down through a notional column of bricks just below it). If the 'left' column of bricks is tied into the party wall (as it should be) then the weight being supported by the RSJ will still be displaced into the party wall. I think you would need to build-in an independent supporting column (probably steel) to support the RSJ, itself properly based and fixed. This would be non-trivial work. You would still have building works which were very close to the party wall, and which might still require a party-wall agreement.

[Jeremy]

Also... what is directly above the existing wall? Is it just floorboards and stud wall, or is it another brick wall?

[red devil]

These dividing walls tend to be either load-bearing timber studs or brickwork, both around 4'' wide. In some cases you will have load-bearing timber studs with brickwork infill panels. 4'' is far too flimsy to support an RSJ, which is likely to be around 8-10'' wide. If you were creating an opening the size of a set of double doors, then a couple of 4 x 2'' timber studs forming a lintel would probably suffice. But once you go beyond that you need to support an RSJ. If you formed a column at the party wall side, this would need it's own independent foundation, and by doing so this could undermine the party wall foundation. It isn't just about building on a party wall, if you were building a rear extension a couple of metres away from the party boundary, you will still need a Notice because it's deemed that the excavations for the extension's foundations could undermine a neighbouring property's foundations...

[Jeremy]

Perhaps the double doors - or smaller opening - is the way to go?

[KidKruger]

How about brick up the opening and have a feature front parlour and rear dining room ?

(and stick 2 fingers up to the tw@ts next door)

[Dulwichwanderer]

You really need to speak to a qualified party wall surveyor.

There are considerations that will be unique to your circumstances.

I can recommend somebody we used when completing our kitchen side/back return, pm if you like.

This is an area where professional advice is worth every penny.

[Jeremy]

While you have the builders round, perhaps you could do the neighbourly thing and pay them to do some work on your neighbours house too?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38502720

[Gadge]

I would discuss this with the contractor you plan to use. I am not sure you will need planning permission but you will need to contact an approved building control officer either southwark or southwark approved. They will want to see that the works are safe and will advise and certify accordingly. Normally a steel beam is inserted in each of the party walls to maintain the strength of the house but it maybe the engineer can design support without using the walls. I would not worry about the neighbour if you are not on speaking terms just get on with the work. Send a letter to the neighbour telling him what you are doing. If he decides he wants to a surveyor to monitor the works for which you are required to pay then get the same surveyor for your works. He can not stop the work provided you have building control approval.

So in short, employ a contractor, advise the council planning and control to get advice and approvals, once approved advise the neighbour in writing and get on with the work. If the neighbour doesn't respond you can assume he doesn't want the party wall agreement.

No problem.

[first mate]

I had thought that if the neighbour does not respond then technically you are in dispute- something to be avoided I'd have thought. Also, once the neighbour is informed in writing I don't think work can proceed until a certain amount of time has elapsed. Others may know more or correct me if I am wrong.

[red devil]

Gadge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If the neighbour doesn't respond you can assume he doesn't want the

> party wall agreement.

>

> No problem.

No you can't. From the Gov Party Wall Act Explanatory Booklet (Section 10):

If, after a period of 14 days from the service of your notice, the person receiving the notice

has done nothing, a dispute is deemed to have arisen...

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/523010/Party_Wall_etc__Act_1996_-_Explanatory_Booklet.pdf

Happy reading...

[Gadge]

You are likly correct but the principle remains,that the neighbour can not stop the work. The party wall agreement process is to allow the neighbour the option to have the work monitored at the instigators cost, He can not hold up the work by refusing to respond. Many neighbours will simply allow the work to go ahead provided Southwark building conttol are involved and they have access to drawings and works themselves. All a vindictive neighbour can do is insist on his own surveyor monitoring the works at the instigators cost.

[first mate]

In the case of hostile neighbours it might be best to email the link above so they can see for themselves what can and cannot be done.

I am not sure that insisting on an independent surveyor is necessarily vindictive. The option is there in law for a reason. The surveyor working for the people that want to build will still charge for the cost of a report on the neighbour's home, so costs may not be that much reduced anyhow. It may well be sensible and time-saving to appoint separate surveyors, as no complaint of suspected partiality or bias can be made.

It is arguably foolish to allow neighbours to proceed on a build that might affect the structure of your own property without having a surveyor involved for both parties. Accidents and damage do happen.

[red devil]

Sensible advice first mate. If you get on very well with your neighbours it's possible to go down the DIY route and sort out the Party Wall Notice and Award yourself in conjunction with your neighbours, thus saving the costs of a surveyor. But even then, neighbours can subsequently fall out and disagree, people quite often do when property and money is involved. That's why I always think it's best to appoint an experienced third party. And when you have a neighbour that's clearly behaving antagonistically, as in this case, there is no option other than to appoint an experienced third party.

Building Control approval is a separate process from the Party Wall process. A PW Award needs to be in place before any works commence, which usually takes a couple of months. With works of this simplistic nature it's common for a builder to issue a Building Notice to the Council 48 hours before works commence, This informs the Council of the imminent works, and should include the Structural Engineer's drawings and calculations. A Building Control officer will then visit site to check the work has been carried out correctly and issue the appropriate approval documentation...