Residents Parking Permits

[Bobby P]

As many have pointed out, even a 2 hour middle of day scheme doesn't really solve the perceived problem. I think, with respect to our Councillor here, that the 2 hours versus Full Day issue is a clever red herring. 2 hours SOUNDS nicer, a little less draconian, plausibly moderate - but if you think about it, it still has most of the undesired effects of a Full Day ban.

Once a CPZ's geographical limits are established (say, to a couple of roads), what about the still free-parking roads right next to the newly created CPZ? If there ARE lots of commuters coming in as some say, they will simply use those adjacent roads. So then maybe those roads will need to become CPZ too.... And so it goes on. As the knock-on effect continues, soon ALL roads become CPZ's - which I suspect some friendly Councillors responsible for Transport (Revenue) know only too well. James, this is in no way aimed at you personally, but if I were a Councillor at a cash-strapped Local Authority who brought back a verified residents approval for a new CPZ, I think I might get a nice pat on the back from the Council's accountants...It's a complete win for the Local Authority if they can install one zone, as it inevitably leads to more zones and more revenue.

I know this that gradual CPZ creep is the usual pattern as it happened at my previous address in Camden. I used to live on an unrestricted road very near the tube, and so (unsurprisingly) it was hard to find space outside my house, and I often had to park one or two roads away. Well, after the CPZ came in, it was exactly the same, just with the extra expense and the often stressful issue of having to get up early to move the car (if a resident's space in my zone wasn't free) or perhaps being ticketed for a bay suspension if I'd been away for a couple of weeks.

My attitude in Camden was, by virtue of living very near a station, I would often need to park further away than I'd ideally like. Big shrug of shoulders. It was the trade off for a desirable property close to public transport. I lived with it, and the new CPZ did nothing to change that, merely adding cost and anxiety.

I would point out that the problem in ED, even on roads near the station, is nothing like as bad as it was in Camden. Since this thread started, like others, I've started keenly noting how many spaces there are. Here on the stretch of Melbourne Grove just beyond East Dulwich Grove (i.e. near Tell Grove and Ashbourne - so three minutes walk to the station) there were at least 6 places this morning at 10.30 when I left the house. And in my experience there always are. So please, before we give our good Councillor the idea that we might be tempted to take the candy of a 2 hour weekday restriction, a) check out my neck of the woods if you must to park your vehicle, and b) be aware that it's a very small step from there to total restriction. And that, believe me, is just unpleasant.

[James Barber]

Hi Bobby P,

I'm in opposition. I'm not in the administration so I'm absolustely not proposing this to raise revenue. Even when my party was in power I would'nt have proposed this as revenue earning. It wouldn't be worth the grief if residents didn't want it!

My interest stems from residents who live in the Grove Vale, Melbourne Grove, East Dulwich Grove triangle raising the issue repeatedly with me during and since the May elections - and having recently sat on a committee where residents pleaded for the Herne Hill scheme to be extended to them.

A smaller number in the triangle Lorship Lane, Melbourne Grove East Dulwich Grove have raised such concerns but this seem related to Lordship Lane businesses rather than commuting so a small CPZ window wouldn't in my mind help much with this.

I'd hope the increasing numbers of Car Club cars we've been getting and continue pushing for will help but I'd still like to find a solution for residents car parking problems.

So, if we think CPZ isn't the solution what is?

[SeanMacGabhann]

The solution to what problem tho? If the problem is "I can't park outside or near my house" then I might question if that is in fact a problem. As has been mentioned by others when you move to a place near a railway line, or a pub, or a station there are quid pro quos involved and this seems to be the case here and a number of people "affected" appear to be accepting of that

The number of cars is growing - physical space in towns can't hope to match that growth. That's it really. Unless people opt not to drive, parking will continue to get ever more scarce

[kford]

Sean: "The number of cars is growing - physical space in towns can't hope to match that growth. That's it really. Unless people opt not to drive, parking will continue to get ever more scarce"

Not true.

From TfL's website:

"In Great Britain as a whole, the proportion of households not owning a car has gradually fallen but in London it has been almost constant at about 40 percent since the mid- 1980s. Although the proportions fluctuate from year-to-year, recent years show a decline in the level of London car ownership."

So maybe it's the increase in Victorian flat conversions?

[SeanMacGabhann]

Well flat conversions wil have a huge effect obviously ? a street with 20 houses and 20 cars can easily become a street with 60 flats and 60 cars

But your quoted stat doesn?t account for

a) The number of households with 2 or more cars now

b) The size of cars has increased significantly in the last 20 years

All in all, a lot less space

[james84]

James,

Maybe the answer is to poll all of the residents of the affected streets and see what tehir views of a CPZ are in the first instance. Im sure that wouldnt be too much to do, either a door to door survey or a few letters through letterboxes. Then at least you would know what the general feeling is of the affetced residents and can look at acting accordingly.

[trizza]

I expect many people who participate in such a poll will think there is a big issue just because they can't park outside their house and will see a CPZ as a panacea to this.

Before consulting on a scheme that will impact residents inside and outside of the CPZ, why not actually try and assess the extent (if any) of the problem. The Council can do a simple study - have someone count the number of available spaces at regular intervals during the day over say a 2 week period. At least then any consultation will be properly informed. There is certainly no consensus from the posts on this thread that there is a serious problem.

The Council look at statistics all the time to assess whether to embark on other projects eg. whether no of accidents on a particular road warrants altering the road layout. Why should the imposition of a CPZ be any different?

If the Council made all its decisions solely on the basis of local consultations then it would probably be mayhem...

[james84]

I see your point, but that would cost more money. The idea that residents are polled in the first place will give a better indicvation of whether they actually see a problem, if they doont then nothing furtehr need be done, its minimum cost and effort.

Initiating a council study im sure would be pretty costly, especially to have one or two people conducting the study over a two week period.

[Otto]

Just to say - I moved to Ed before it became popular. When we bought our place, it was near enough to the station and ll but not close enough to worry about parking. There were always plenty of spots though difficult on a Sunday due to the church. An occasional weekend evening it would crowd up if a party was at the constitution club. The point repeated here about accepting the luxury of being within walking distance to the station with having parking issues is something I did not have to consider because there was plenty of parking. I am an avid cyclist and rarely use the car but do need it on occasion, and, not the kind of occasions where car club would be helpful (bad weather school runs or sick children school runs or carrying large things home). I do hate cars, and, car dependency.

Instead of a cpz or additional bike parking, what about a mini-Boris scheme -- having a few racks of bikes dotted about the further reaches of ed and a big one by the station? If not Boris bikes, they could be their own scheme - Ed bikes. And foxtons could sponsor it as punishment for all those foul little cars...

[Penguin68]

"Please, I want a CPZ just outside my own house, with me the only person allowed to park in it, please, please...." is generally the way people asked about these sort of things see the question ... it ain't gonna be like that, no way, no how. Your next door neighbour, with 3 cars, will be permanently parking outside your house, you will be parking a long way away and having to get up early to move your car etc. etc. When I was in a CPZ area I found out that many more cars were 'permitted' to park in my allocated stretch of street than there were spaces - and why not, it was a money spinner.

As others have said, ED being a CPZ free zone is part of its very real attractions - CPZs ineventably spread and become more demanding - some now set the allowable hours as late as after 8.00 in the evening - apparently to ensure that only residents park there, but actually (as there are also meters - look forward to those why don't you) to raise even more money. Hosting children's parties (or visits), except on Sundays, or other than only with guests living very locally is no longer a realistic option.

Any poll MUST include adjacent (and wider) streets to a proposed zone - and (I know we on this site pride ourselves as being the voice of ED) we really shouldn't confuse what we are saying with 'the voice of the people'. A thread was started here by one person - James suggests it comes up in surgery whining - but is there really a groundswell?

[TJ]

Can I also add to the general discussion the impact that CPZ have on small and local business. I am talking drop off places such as DIY, newsagents, post offices, libraries even. We really need to protect the shops and jobs in the area and CPZ will simply divert shoppers to other areas on their journeys - or put people off non essential stops.

Its like a mini congestion zone effect and really not what ED needs.

[James Barber]

Hi TJ,

IF a CPZ was introduced operating in the middle of the day for one hour it free up parking currently used by rail commuters for shoppers to visit. It would mean that businesses could'nt park without a business permit or they'd have to mvoe their vehicle at some point in the day.

Hi Penguin68,

Hopefully the irony of you whining about the assumption I've had people whining isn't lost on you.

I've never said I've had people whining. For example I've had people explain real problems they have getting young kids in and out of car with shopping when they can't park anywhere near their homes or on the street they live on.

I'm afraid Im on of those people that when they hear of a problem like to try finding a solution.

[Loz]

James Barber Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm afraid Im on of those people that when they

> hear of a problem like to try finding a solution.

Don't apologise - it really is one of your strengths and your efforts are much appreciated.

But, as I said, do ensure that the exact nature of the problem is known so that the right solution can be found. Discussing solutions before this is done is putting the cart before the horse.

And sometimes, just sometimes, doing nothing can be the least-worst solution.

[cate]

There was a CPZ consultation a while ago - five or more years I believe. Anyone got the results of that?

[Bobby P]

Hi James. As you said a couple of posts back, a CPZ is not necessarily the solution. It seems to me from all the comments very unlikely that it WILL alleviate any parking issue on these roads, especially if the majority of cars are NOT commuters.

I do feel, as has been stated a lot here, that for those of us who live near the station, there is just a commonsense trade-off between the convenience of proximity to public transport/shops and parking our cars. That we might have to hunt around a little for parking is really a much lesser problem than the inconvenience a CPZ would create. No one's actually said they've been completely unable to find a space, albeit on a neighbouring road in some instances (and again, as I left home at 10am today, I saw a good 4 spaces in Melbourne Grove/Tell Grove happily waiting to be used!). In other words, are we really talking about a problem or a minor inconvenience? A CPZ doesn't really solve said inconvenience, it just shifts the issue to neighbouring roads.

Mission creep of zones, the temptation to expand them and increase revenue - I really haven't seen anyone answer these points convincingly, and logic dictates that these would be the consequence of an introduction. Car Clubs, perhaps actually removing some of the new restrictions that have been placed in these roads, something else as yet to be proposed, would in practice be much more likely to ease congestion.

[calculus]

I think the only way to get a true insight into where people stand this issue is to have a survey / consultation. And I don't mean on this forum as it would only represent a small section of our community. i.e. Ask the community to choose between a) a 1 hour CPZ during the middle of the day or b) keeping the area totally unrestricted as it is now. It would need to be specified clearly that the CPZ would only operate for a short window in the day as this is greatly different to a full CPZ imho. The consultation done 5 years ago is really not relevant as the area has changed quite a lot in the last 5 years. I also imagine (but I'm guessing here) that it was a choice between a CPZ (unspecified hours) or no CPZ, and that restricted hours was not an option.