creche

[Moos]

I'm all for parents being strict with their kids in public places - on the bus, at the supermarket, in restaurants, in pubs and in all the other places where people on this forum complain that they don't like seeing children. Children have to learn that we co-exist with one another by co-operation and good manners, and they can only learn by being taken out in public and by being set a good example. Obviously there are some limits, and I'd be as disappointed as anyone else if a toddler were crying at the next table if I were having dinner with my other half at a smart restaurant.

On the other hand, it's always such a relief to leave ED and go on holiday to places (rural UK, Italy, Germany for e.g.)where my small child gets smiled at by strangers rather than glared at when his voice is a little loud, where people evidently expect to see all members of society out and about rather than only the polished young-adult variety, and where people are simply a little kind and a little tolerant.

[GinaG3]

Most pubs are family friendly during the day, if you want to go for a quiet drink do it at night when children are safely tucked up in bed out of your way. Simple really.

I took my daughter to harvester for a meal the other day, nice family outing for us. I tell you don't go there if your looking for a quiet meal, it wont happen.

Next thing someone will be moaning about children in Sainsburys - ban being able to shop with your child!!

The phrase 'children should be seen and not heard' comes to mind here. This is no longer the world we live in, you need to time travel back a while for that mate.

[Moos]

GinaG3 Wrote:

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> Next thing someone will be moaning about children

> in Sainsburys - ban being able to shop with your

> child!!

People already have, several times.

[zeban]

Please don't hijack this post into something it clearly was never about.

[Moos]

Is that for me? I believe it's valid to put the OP's comments into a wider context of posters who complain about encountering children in a variety of public places.

[zeban]

Not really Moos, because you didn't approach this post as being anti children in public places, until your last post. It was aimed at those accusing me of having the attitude that children should be seen but not heard. Because that's not at all what it's about. It's not actually about children at all, it's about parents, choices, and attitudes when socialising with their children.

I'd never complain about children in supermarkets, although I know some people have on here but I'm not one of them. Don't taint all with the same brush. There's a massive difference between the day to day things and socialising. I very much doubt anyone goes to the supermarket for some downtime/to socialise/or for a certain ambience.

[Moos]

Afraid I was the one who first mentioned supermarkets - my point is that there is widespread complaint about children in all sorts of public places, whereas I think the only way they can learn to behave is to be taken out. And yes, I'd agree it's pretty unreasonable to expect supermarkets to be child-free. There is a wider context than the posts you and the OP have written complaining about 'too many children' out and about in ED and wanting 'adult only' facilities - obviously, I'm not making accusations about you, but your comments have to be seen in that general light. So what is it you think we need? No children at all in pubs/caf?s/restaurants or just only well-behaved ones?

Anyway, to your point. Is it expecting children to be mini adults to sit in a caf? or a pub? I don't think so, per se. As I said before, we need to bear in mind that small children just won't behave well for long, and time visits accordingly to be fair both to our children and to other people, but my experience (purely of my own child and those of friends) is that they do enjoy brief visits to caf?s and short meals out. I also think ????'s point is a valid one, it's not too much to ask children to allow their parents a pleasant drink or lunch out and to expect them to behave themselves.

[Moos]

Have just re-read post and appear to be writing quite convoluted sentences in my tiredness, apols if they make little sense.

Off to bed now, look forward to resuming discussion later.

[zeban]

I didn't want/intend this post to be put in the context of those other posts at all. I'm sure you are a very considerate person Moo, but do bare in mind that not all are and it doesn't help when people are so defensive and think that anyone who speaks out is childless and doesn't understand anything about being a parent. The OP is actually a parent himself which he makes very clear, and it was the inconsiderate parents who he and I are commenting about- those who use places as creches, staying long after their children have started to play up, and having the attitude that it's everyone elses' problem if it bothers them. And that's not an urban myth for single people to make up because they don't want to see children in pubs!

Maybe it's my fault for kind of hijacking the OP's post but I just can't stand it when people shout others down without really understanding what a person is saying. I understand parenting is bloody stressful, that parents need to get out and about, they need support, not to feel isolated or their children vilified. But it does seem that the parents in ED have a very valuable asset-something that many parents would love to have- a huge community of other parents. Given the support and help you can get from eachother it would baffle me that anyone would need or want to use a pub/cafe as a creche. I'm sure people will tell me I'm being patronising now. This isn't my intention in the least however, and I'm sorry if I've offended anyone.

[*Bob*]

zeban Wrote:

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but I just can't stand it when people shout

> others down without really understanding what a

> person is saying.

What is Mr Dodd saying? All he's done is let this one out like a tedious and slippery wet fart and then let somebody else - who happens to be more considered (ie you) do all the talking.

His contributions are the usual yawnworthy mix of hyperbole (see use of 'Playschool' and 'creche'), envy ("we never had the time or the money to take them to the pub"), contradiction (oh look.. next post "when i take my kids out if they are noisey or messing about ie crawling or running about i will take them outside so as not trouble other diners") and the cherry on the top "Yummy Mummies doing lunch" - Bravo, Mr Dodd, BRAVO.

I sincerely hope a rogue toddler empties a bowl of pasta on his head - as a reward for posting such 'complete arse'.

[Mike Dodd]

yawn bob yawn

[*Bob*]

A man a few words. That make no sense.

[*Bob*]

If there's anything else you'd like to 'ban' - and then describe yourself doing in your next post - be sure to let us know.

Durrr...

[zeban]

Yes, the OP wasn't being very articulate but to me it just seemed he was ranting off because he was frustrated/annoyed. Most people are pretty extreme with their words when they're feeling really pissed off. I decided to take it upon myself to read between the lines of what he was really saying as I very much doubt that as a parent himself he would be anti-children. No one let me do the talking, I wanted to address something that has been bothering me also.

The OP was rightly pointing out that not everyone's reality is the same, and to me it's the attitude/assumption that it is which I get from some parents in ED that annoys me. Those that use places as though they were creches and accuse those who don't like it as being anti children.

I've been told by other posters that we live in a modern society and that in other parts of Europe children are always in restaurants/pubs all the time, so what's the problem. Has it occurred to those parents that in other Western European countries there simply isn't the disparity between rich and poor that we have here. Honestly, I think some people believe this is an urban myth but it isn't- and you only needed to follow the Evening Standard's dispossessed campaign to understand just how bad the situation is. Some people really can't afford a pub lunch or a hot chocolate and cake for themselves and their children, especially if they have more than one child. People are simply more equal in other parts of Europe, eating out in pubs/restaurants isn't a priviledge for the few. It's a fact that social mobility is the lowest here than in any other country in the first world. This isn't about envying wealthier people, it's about the fact that you probably feel like a failure of a parent already without other parents rubbing it in your faces in places where some people actually go to try to get away from the guilt that they already feel, and try to relieve their stresses so they can go home and be a better, less stressed parent. Obviously I don't know the OP's situation but who could blame him for feeling a little resentful if this is the case for him. Everyone has their own stresses absolutely, but I know from my mum's experience that financial pressure is really really stressful, and I don't mean finding the money for mortgages or holidays, I mean finding money for the basic ammenities. My mum foregoed going out for coffee most of the time, but she occasionally took breaks away from us when she could (and I'm grateful for her own sake as well as mine!).

Banning children to me is ridiculous because again that's saying we all share the same reality when we don't. But maybe a recognition that other people use these same places for different reasons as you, that peoples' realities ARE different, and that some people don't believe that every place is or should be appropriate for children- obviously this last one is a matter of opinion though but it's a valid opinion nonetheless. When I was younger I openly admit I felt jealous of the kids I would see in the restaurants, I would feel resentful that I had to eat sandwiches that my mum made for us whenever we went somewhere. But then I grew up and realised that none of these things mattered, that I had the whole of my adult life to eat out/spend time in places surrounded by adults, and the only person I feel for is my mum who was made to feel somewhat inadequate because of this.

[womanofdulwich]

Wow zeban- I am not destitute but I have NEVER gone out to buy a coffee-to escape. I just shut the bathroom door and run a bath. You have really made me think! ( One coffee might be cheaper than a full bath??)What does everyone else think?

[Huguenot]

The cost of the bath depends upon the seasonal temperature, the type of water heating system you're using, along with the depth and the temperature of the bathwater itself.

It's easier to think of it as around a pound.

However the opportunity benefit of drowning passing wallies in it may outweigh the costs...

[Mellors]

I'd love to go for a coffee/drink for a bit of down time and not have to take my children, but there isn't actually a creche in East Dulwich, and not all of us have family around who can have them for an hour (and its really not worth the aggro/cost of a sitter just to go for a brew!).

Maybe if somebody opened a drop off creche facility in ED then there would be fewer harrased parents toting their kids rounds everywhere with them? Business opportunity!

[zeban]

Ditto Huguenot, my bath is pretty big.

A coffee isn't a pound, and it definitely isn't in East Dulwich! add on a cake and a hot chocolate and you're looking at a tenner. More kids, add more money. A tenner has to stretch a long way for some, making going out for a coffee a luxury for some. Deny it all you like but this is absolutely the case for many parents. They probably just don't speak up because they don't want the judgement of 'you shouldn't have children if you can't afford them.' Circumstances change all the time so don't take anything for granted.

[zeban]

Mellors, you've missed the point.

[????]

Lol - have you really looked at the drivel your posting or is this all in all not a bad windup by someone attempting to sound like there's some logic behind their homespun, contaradctory, idiotic drivel?

[Moos]

Not sure I understand the point at issue here. People shouldn't take their children to cafes in case it offends other people who can't take their children to cafes? Is that it? Why are we arguing about what a coffee costs again?

[DaveR]

Blah blah blah. It's been done to death on here. Some people are inconsiderate, some people have kids, some are both. Move along, nothing new here.

[Gimme]

There is a strong hint of 'issues' here rather than just plain opinions...

[stingray]

I used to work in a very family friendly pub.

It actively encouraged families to come in. It also kept an area which was adults only.

For the most part, there were happy families in one area, and happy adults in another.

Complaints often heard on both sides of the argument:

It is like a creche in here.

Why can't we sit in the adult area with this kids - this is ridiculous.

Problems on both sides:

Drunken or problem adults.

Screaming kids who are left to run around unsupervised by adults.

Both of these situations were inconsiderate, and not tolerated.

It is the job of the premises in question to manage these situations, and more often than not take the associated flak which goes with it. Have to say though, a scorned parent was most of the time more viscous than a scorned adult.

Me thinks, tolerance, empathy, and realising the earth does not revolve around yourself is what is required on BOTH sides of the argument.

[bonniebird]

Zeeban, was the pub near Vicky Park the Falcon and Ferkin:))