lavender27 Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 On Tuesday I saw officers and a civilian getting out of an Immigration Investigation Van on Crystal palace Road. I've never seen one of those before. Does anyone know what was going on? Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/134305-immigration-investigation-van-last-tuesday/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tractorlad Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 Investigating a suspected immigration issue? Just a guess. I suspect you might have too much time on your hands. If it help, I've a stack of ironing at home if you're bored? Thanks. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/134305-immigration-investigation-van-last-tuesday/#findComment-1081092 Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncleglen Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 Just one means of removal-https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/key-topics/illegal-immigrationin October the Government are offering illegals ?2000 to leave..... Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/134305-immigration-investigation-van-last-tuesday/#findComment-1081100 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Aelfheah Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 'illegals'? Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/134305-immigration-investigation-van-last-tuesday/#findComment-1081104 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheArtfulDogger Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 Maybe they were on a tea break going for a bacon sandwich 🙄 Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/134305-immigration-investigation-van-last-tuesday/#findComment-1081192 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lavender27 Posted December 8, 2016 Author Share Posted December 8, 2016 I'll do mine first Tractorlad, and then I'll be over to you, don't hold yer breath though.Tractorlad Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> Investigating a suspected immigration issue? Just> a guess. I suspect you might have too much time> on your hands. If it help, I've a stack of> ironing at home if you're bored? Thanks. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/134305-immigration-investigation-van-last-tuesday/#findComment-1081259 Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncleglen Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 ok, unlawful non-citizen. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/134305-immigration-investigation-van-last-tuesday/#findComment-1081263 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendelharris Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 Did it say "Immigration Enforcement"? A dodgy bunch, they dress and use vehicles like coppers but actually aren't. They're supposed to use warrants to raid premises they suspect of housing or employing illegal immigrants but actually in more than 50% of cases they claim "informed consent," which can basically be made to mean anything they want it to mean. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/134305-immigration-investigation-van-last-tuesday/#findComment-1081264 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlonaM Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 Try undocumented migrantuncleglen Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> ok, unlawful non-citizen. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/134305-immigration-investigation-van-last-tuesday/#findComment-1081271 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigello Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 Rendel - Please show us your source. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/134305-immigration-investigation-van-last-tuesday/#findComment-1081305 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jules-and-Boo Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 illegal immigrant is now an "undocumented migrant", IlonaM? Really? Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/134305-immigration-investigation-van-last-tuesday/#findComment-1081311 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendelharris Posted December 8, 2016 Share Posted December 8, 2016 Nigello Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> Rendel - Please show us your source.http://icinspector.independent.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/ICIBI-Report-on-illegal-working-17.12.2015.pdfSections 5.18/5.19 (pg 23): 5.18 IE have no statutory power of entry to search for immigration offenders. Officers may apply to a magistrate (or sheriff in Scotland) for a warrant to enter premises for specified purposes without requiring the owner?s consent, or may gain entry with the ?informed consent? of someone in authority at the premises. IE guidance describes ?informed consent? as ?a person?s agreement to allow something to happen after the person has been informed of all the risks involved and the alternatives?5.19 In the past, IE had made extensive use of Section 28CA of the Immigration Act 1971. This allowed officers to enter business premises and make arrests with a Home Office Assistant Director?s authority (an ?AD letter?) in specific circumstances without recourse to a warrant. Our 2014 report An Inspection of the Use of the Power to Enter Business Premises Without a Search Warrant found that there had been widespread non-compliance with the guidance and ineffective assurance processes but also that senior managers had identified this issue and were beginning to improve performance and compliance.Section 5.48 (pg 30): There were inconsistencies in operational practice in a number of areas, which pointed to deficiencies in officer training, supervision and assurance. The areas included: reconnaissance (?recces?) of target premises; use of non-directed surveillance; obtaining lawful entry to premises; pursuit, cautioning, questioning, and use of handcuffs. Failure to apply the law correctly and to follow IE guidance in relation to any and all of these compromises the Home Office and the officers involved, as well as infringing the rights of the individuals affected.ETA Figure 12 page 24, of sample raids, 79 carried out under warrant, 3 unclear, 102 "informed consent." Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/134305-immigration-investigation-van-last-tuesday/#findComment-1081314 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlonaM Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 Let's try to leave the Daily Mail terms in the gutter where they belong, shall we? Undocumented migrant covers a multitude of possibilities - overstayer, failed asylum seeker, those in the country without leave for whatever reason etc. It also includes those who haven't had their immigration applications resolved yet. Let's show others the same respect we'd expect to be shown ourselves whatever their circumstances. The immigration debate needn't be inflammatory.Jules-and-Boo Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> illegal immigrant is now an "undocumented> migrant", IlonaM? > > Really? Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/134305-immigration-investigation-van-last-tuesday/#findComment-1081411 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angelina Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 .. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/134305-immigration-investigation-van-last-tuesday/#findComment-1081415 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jules-and-Boo Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 Ilona, it's obviously a sore point, but the term was not created by the Daily Mail. It's a real term for the very things you describe - or would you prefer everyone was legal, perhaps with deferred legality (once all paperwork is in order)?It's a bit like being caught without drivers insurance and saying to the police that you're applying for it - it doesn't matter - you don't have it, you're uninsured and driving illegally. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/134305-immigration-investigation-van-last-tuesday/#findComment-1081419 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlonaM Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 Jules it's not a sore point - I've been working in the field for a long time and I've seen how this kind of language affects those who are seeking asylum or seeking to regularize their immigration status. The language used by the certain newspapers, politicians and members of the public can have a devastating effect on the health of those on the receiving end. Like Donald Trump, you might like using the term 'illegals', but it has no reference in law. The 'real term' you rely upon is used as an inflammatory term in the discussion on migration and immigration by particular groups. Those who work in the field, on all sides, chose to use more neutral language. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/134305-immigration-investigation-van-last-tuesday/#findComment-1081424 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jules-and-Boo Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 not everyone's the same - while there may be people who are trying to sort out their citizenshiip and their intentions are good, there are people who are purposefully not and the term illegal does apply. The latter has a devastating effect and you should not undermine because saying so hurts some peoples feelings. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/134305-immigration-investigation-van-last-tuesday/#findComment-1081426 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otta Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 If someone is overstaying on purpose, then I don't think it's wrong to call them an illegal immigrant, because the law says they should no longer be here. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/134305-immigration-investigation-van-last-tuesday/#findComment-1081430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendelharris Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 It's a fine point and someone will be along in a moment bawling "snowflake generation," no doubt, but the offence caused lies in the way the term "illegal immigrant" makes the person, and not what they're doing, illegal. We don't refer to other offenders against the law as "illegal people," the characterisation of the person as the offence exists solely for immigrants. It's a way of dehumanising. As the holocaust survivor and Nobel laureate Elie Wiesel wisely said, "no human being is illegal."Just to caution against using such catchall terms, "illegal immigrants" can include those trafficked to Britain to work in the sex trade, victims of forced marriage, those brought to Britain as spouses then divorced...words are powerful and terms do matter. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/134305-immigration-investigation-van-last-tuesday/#findComment-1081436 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jules-and-Boo Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 absolutely RH, the vulnerable and exploited are the result of 'lack of documentation' and those with the intention of those to avoid the proper process.I have not thought of the term as addressing a person at all but a statement of the fact, as in illegal drivers. Not "he's an illegal driver" Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/134305-immigration-investigation-van-last-tuesday/#findComment-1081442 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jules-and-Boo Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 and I believe that checking immigration status actually goes a way to protect the vulnerable, that have been exploited - and helping them.It's not just about identifying people whose visa has expired. That's really a very superficial way of looking at it. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/134305-immigration-investigation-van-last-tuesday/#findComment-1081447 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendelharris Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 Certain organisations (such as Associated Press) which have ceased using "illegal immigrant" still refer to "illegal immigration" as that refers to the activity, not the person. It is, as I said, a matter of fine distinction. It's against the law to build an extension on the front of your house without planning permission, and officials might well talk of a need to crack down on "illegal extensions" but not "illegal householders," as it's not the householders who are illegal but their behaviour. Immigrants are the only ones I can think of who are referred to individually or en masse as illegal human beings, rather than perpetrators of an illegal action. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/134305-immigration-investigation-van-last-tuesday/#findComment-1081448 Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendelharris Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 Jules-and-Boo Wrote:-------------------------------------------------------> and I believe that checking immigration status> actually goes a way to protect the vulnerable,> that have been exploited - and helping them.> It's not just about identifying people whose visa> has expired. That's really a very superficial way> of looking at it.Good job I don't look at it that way then, and I don't think I've said that I do. I have no problem with proper checks being made and I agree they can be a powerful way of stopping the abuse of unauthorized migrants. However, as per the report I linked to and quoted above, Immigration Enforcement have too often broken the law themselves in undertaking raids without due cause etc. Unfortunately there are plenty of people who might not like an immigrant business in their community (or indeed other immigrants who want to drive out rivals) who will allege to IE that said business is using unauthorised immigrants: it seems from the report that IE have adopted a gung-ho approach to such tipoffs which has carried them too often beyond the boundaries of their remit and indeed the law. Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/134305-immigration-investigation-van-last-tuesday/#findComment-1081456 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogkennelhillbilly Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 Jules-and-Boo Wrote:------------------------------------------------------->, there> are people who are purposefully not and the term> illegal does apply. The latter has a devastating> effect and you should not undermine because saying> so hurts some peoples feelings.What's this "devastating effect" of illegal immigrants that have no interest in legalising their status? Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/134305-immigration-investigation-van-last-tuesday/#findComment-1081524 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ploberman Posted December 9, 2016 Share Posted December 9, 2016 Well done Lavender27.....You stoked the fire THEN had a cup of tea and your bacon sandwich! Link to comment https://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/topic/134305-immigration-investigation-van-last-tuesday/#findComment-1081627 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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