Not many people appear to know this but Parmesan isn't vegetarian.

[Loz]

annaj Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I fairly certain she meant before slaughter and

> processing.

>

> But to respond in kind to your pedantry, vegans

> don't eat eggs.

I know - which is why I pointed it out?

[annaj]

Oh, ok, yes, I see.

You were pointing it out for the vegans, rather than suggesting it was an alternative for vegans, which is how I first read it.

Pedantic objection withdrawn.

[Mick Mac]

You get it now anna. Good.

[RosieH]

Anna, I thought the same thing.

Makes no sense - egg whites aren't used for "vegan" wines: not all wine is fined, and there are clay-based fining agents which are suitable for vegans, so I don't understand Loz's post.

[Loz]

Looks like I'm a pedant with poor sentence construction. Is that even possible? I'll try again.

Not everyone knows wine is fined and a few vegans might be somewhat surprised to find that, unless marked as vegan, there is a possibility that egg whites may have been used in the manufacturing process, even though the possibility of egg white actually being contained in the wine is extremely low.

Yes, there are clay based alternatives. And not all wines are fined. The value of your shares may go down. Don't run with knives. Beware of the dog.

Edited, cos 'poor sentence contraction' doesn't make much sense either. I think it's beer o'clock.

[Mick Mac]

annaj Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I like my mum's definition.

>

> At a Rotary Club Dinner in rural Goucestershire,

> in the 80s, after politely turning down chicken

> and fish, she lost patience and said (very calmy

> and in her lovely RP accent)

>

> "I'm a vegetarian. I don't eat anything that

> f*cks" *

>

>

> *Now, I know some pedant will now point out that

> fish don't techincally f*ck (fertilisation of the

> eggs happens outside the fish) but if you take

> f*ck in this context to mean reproduce sexually

> (as in by fusion of male and female gametes)then

> it's not a bad definition.

I enjoyed that post.

Where is "rural Goucestershire"?

[katie1997]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Looks like I'm a pedant with poor sentence

> construction. Is that even possible? I'll try

> again.

>

> Not everyone knows wine is fined and a few vegans

> might be somewhat surprised to find that, unless

> marked as vegan, there is a possibility that egg

> whites may have been used in the manufacturing

> process, even though the possibility of egg white

> actually being contained in the wine is extremely

> low.

>

> Yes, there are clay based alternatives. And not

> all wines are fined. The value of your shares may

> go down. Don't run with knives. Beware of the

> dog.

>

>

>

> Edited, cos 'poor sentence contraction' doesn't

> make much sense either. I think it's beer

> o'clock.

...as well as up (tu)

( is it wine o' clock yet ? ) :))

[RosieH]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Looks like I'm a pedant with poor sentence

> construction. Is that even possible? I'll try

> again.

Ah I see, Loz. Sorry, wasn't trying to be amusing, and yes, you make a good point. Loads of vegetarians and even the two vegans I've unusually found myself friends with, didn't know about the wine thing.

They should put it on the cover of something. Vegan Weekly?

[Applespider]

I have a strict vegetarian friend (well, it's the only thing she's strict about ;-) ) so I did know this since I was making a risotto for her one night.

I did find a good hard crumbly cheese that was similar in flavour (not quite as rich) by asking at the cheese shop near South Kensington (since it was near work). Unfortunately I can't recall what it was called :-$

[woofmarkthedog]

I wonder how many words the Inuit have for vegetarian ?

W**F

[Thomas Micklewright]

There are a number of cheese that contain animal parts - gran pedarno etc that contain calf renit - scrapped from a calfs stomach.

[The Minkey]

The way I've always understood it is that a vegetarian is someone who eats foods which aren't derived from the death of an animal, therefore most cheese is off-menu as well as various sweets which contain gelatin. A vegan, on the other hand, extends this to avoidance of animal by-products e.g. eggs and honey. Someone who doesn't eat meat, but who eats fish isn't a vegetarian.

[peterstorm1985]

If a vegetarian is to be defined as someone who doesn't eat anything that derives from the death of an animal, then how do they eat or drink anything that includes cows milk? Without the slaughter of all the male calves the milk industry wouldn't exist and because of the non-viability of veal as a saleable meat at the scale required (and milk production calves are not suitable to fatten up for beef), the deaths of these calves are directly attributable to milk production. So, as rennet comes from calves, you might as well give their lives some purpose. Consequently, if you are going to eat cheese it would seem morally responsible to eat Parmesan in its proper form.

[elloriac]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> What about red wine - how does that sit with

> vegetarians?

Vegetarians don't need to give up red wine & neither do vegans - there's loads out there!

For example, http://www.barnivore.com/ (I have no affiliation with this site)

Most supermarkets with online shopping do allow you to search for veggie wines & some for vegan. Plus there are specialist online shops too. There are several brands usually found in bars & restaurants that you can remember when out & about.

It is possible to stick to your morals and drink. :-)

[wee quinnie]

peterstorm1985 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If a vegetarian is to be defined as someone who

> doesn't eat anything that derives from the death

> of an animal, then how do they eat or drink

> anything that includes cows milk? Without the

> slaughter of all the male calves the milk industry

> wouldn't exist and because of the non-viability of

> veal as a saleable meat at the scale required (and

> milk production calves are not suitable to fatten

> up for beef), the deaths of these calves are

> directly attributable to milk production. So, as

> rennet comes from calves, you might as well give

> their lives some purpose. Consequently, if you are

> going to eat cheese it would seem morally

> responsible to eat Parmesan in its proper form.

Whilst you are right to raise the issue of the slaughter of male cattle as a conseqence of dairy production....isn't the logical extension of this argument that vegetarians should eat meat?

[peterstorm1985]

The logic that 'vegetarians' should eat meat only follows if they drink cows milk or eat products made from milk. I've just never understood why it is seen as better from a vegetarian's point of view to avoid cheese made with calves rennet when the milk that goes into the same cheese has been produced at the expense of an animal's life. The additional wastage of not using a by product from calves seems to be more immoral.

[Brendan]

Anyone else not give a monkeys what people choose to eat or not eat and think that their motivations are entirely their own concern and it is no skin off anyone else nose?

Just a thought you know.

[Moos]

What if people are hunting and eating animals that will become extinct as a result?

[Brendan]

Dam your infernal questions! We?re obviously not talking about Kakapo Korma and Panda Pate.

[RosieH]

Mmmm, panda pate. Wonder if it's cheaper than the rillettes in EDD..?

As for no skin off noses - for sure, but don't blimming call yourself a vegetarian if you eat fish, and don't get all holier than thou if you drink wine / eat cheese / wear shoes that have required the death of an animal to do so.

[Brendan]

Or if you've just had dhole dumplings with a gharial ganache in snow leopard soup for lunch.

[RosieH]

Man I'm hungry.

[georgia]

Brendan Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Anyone else not give a monkeys what people choose

> to eat or not eat and think that their motivations

> are entirely their own concern and it is no skin

> off anyone else nose?

>

> Just a thought you know.

Well said.

[wee quinnie]

peterstorm1985 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The logic that 'vegetarians' should eat meat only

> follows if they drink cows milk or eat products

> made from milk. I've just never understood why it

> is seen as better from a vegetarian's point of

> view to avoid cheese made with calves rennet when

> the milk that goes into the same cheese has been

> produced at the expense of an animal's life. The

> additional wastage of not using a by product from

> calves seems to be more immoral.

I hear what you're saying...and this is kind of what prompted the orginal post. When I'm at home, I don't consume dairy products (for the reasons you outline). However, in my experience, when I am out and about, I do end up eating the veggie option; but most cafes/restaurants appear to think that the vegetarian dish must contain cheese. I know that not all do, but this appears to be some kind of unwritten rule.

Edited for reasons of having left half of the sentence out - oops!

[peterstorm1985]

wee quinnie Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

However, in my experience, when I am

> out and about, most cafes/restaurants appear to

> think that the vegetarian dish must contain

> cheese. I know that not all do, but this appears

> to be some kind of unwritten rule.

You're right. I'm not a vegetarian (as you can probably guess), but I am a strict avoider of any meat that's been factory farmed, and sometimes do end up choosing the vegetarian option when I'm not certain of the origins of the meat. Cheese does seem to play a large part of the vegetarian option a little too often. But it often has eggs in it too, and then I spend a guilt ridden evening presuming they're from battery hens......

And of course, a lot of vegetables will be grown using animal manure (which wouldn't exist if the animals weren't grown for milk/meat/eggs), so if you think too hard you'd never eat.