Undertaking on HH/Denmark Hill

[Ruskin]

I've just had a near-miss on Herne Hill where a wide BMW 4x4 undertook me in the bus lane just as oncoming traffic coming at me head-on while overtaking a bus.

I see this a lot on HH and Denmark Hill where drivers simply cannot follow a slower vehicle, putting their foot down on the inside, regardless of whether others are doing the 20mph limit or not. One day there's going to be a nasty incident on these roads.

I do think however, that 20mph is a very low limit on those roads and it does actually exacerbate dangerous driving as above.

Seething!

[rendelharris]

There's an awful lot of this going on and you're right to find it infuriating - been seriously considering investing in a GoPro or similar dashboard cam just to document some of the insane behaviour. Trust me, as we witnessed when we used to live right on the Denmark Hill/Champion Hill junction, there have already been any number of very nasty incidents on this stretch of road. However I'd disagree that the 20 MPH limit is too low as from Tulse Hill all the way to Camberwell the only advantage in speeding is to get to the next set of lights quicker - time and again we'll be undertaken by someone doing forty when we're doing twenty and we'll still be right behind them when we get to Camberwell or even Elephant. I'm too old and unfit to be much cop on my bicycle but in the rush hour I often find I'm still with the same group of cars over the whole stretch from Herne Hill to Camberwell and beyond, faster speeds don't actually get anyone anywhere faster.

I know there will be plenty who disagree, but in my opinion the fact that a lot of people choose to disregard the speed limit (especially when, as above, it's entirely pointless so to do) is not a reason to change the limit, it's a reason to bring in better enforcement. Average traffic speeds in London are so low anyway, anyone who chooses to roar past in a 40MPH undertake isn't going to get to their destination any quicker, they're just displaying the macho aggression that's making the roads so unpleasant for drivers, motorcyclists, cyclists and pedestrians alike.

Just my two penn'orth!

[Sally Eva]

I wonder if it's because cars are designed (and sold) on their power and acceleration. People buy them -- and then all that power and acceleration is useless to them.

These statistics are a few years old http://www.itv.com/news/london/update/2012-11-19/tfl-average-traffic-speeds-are-less-than-20-mph-in-london/ but they show that the average speed across London is less than 20mph and across central London less than 10mph. What use is a car that does 0-60 in under 30 seconds? Even the most brainless petrol head must get some suspicion that he is paying a lot to get an advantage over someone else and he's just not getting his money's worth.

So all that frustration comes out. He'll show you............ Forget about him and have a peaceful evening

[rendelharris]

Very sensible post that Sally - I'm at a loss to understand why it's permissible to buy a car with a top speed of twice the maximum speed limit or more, I know one needs a little in hand in case there's a need to accelerate past a potential incident on a motorway, but really having a car which can do more than 100MPH in the UK indicates either an ego trip or a definite intention to break the law.

[Jeremy]

In London, yes a powerful car is pointless. But IMO there's a case for owning something moderately powerful (not talking about sports cars) if you drive outside of London frequently. Motorway driving, overtaking horses/cyclists/tractors on country roads, etc. Small cars with under 100bhp are well suited to city driving, though.

TBH I've never really understood why car top speeds aren't capped.

[rendelharris]

'Cos it'd be nanny state interference with individual freedom, innit? Even though the freedom in this case would appear to be the freedom to break the law...

By the way Jeremy, I agree with the rest of your post but powerful engines for overtaking horses?! One should slow right down for horses and pass very slowly with as little engine noise as possible, the last thing a rider needs is a powerful motor whizzing past with a roar!

[Sally Eva]

I don't think I'm talking so much about the power of the car as the gearing -- it's the 0-60 in 30 seconds bit -- drivers almost can't drive at 20mph without their engine making a terrible noise -- it's longing to go faster -- if they go up a gear the engine in tugging at them. There's no comfortable place in which to do 20mph.

It's quite hard to drive slowly, and it shouldn't be. Quite small cars are geared like this, I think.

[rendelharris]

I think (not much of a petrolhead, as you might gather) this can be easily adjusted on modern cars by changing the engine mapping through a computer. But then it'd mean losing the top end for illegal speeds, would people be willing to sacrifice the 150mph top speed for which they'd paid a premium?

[nunhead_man]

"drivers almost can't drive at 20mph without their engine making a terrible noise -- it's longing to go faster "

I'm afraid that's rubbish Sally Eva - I have a motor with 350 bhp - two stage turbo flat 4 - that happily burbles along at 20mph in third gear at 2000 rpm at 20mph in London and goes into roller skate mode when on motorways

[Jeremy]

Sally Eva Wrote:

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> it's the 0-60 in 30 seconds bit

Struggling to see what you're getting at here as I don't think there's a car on the market anywhere near as slow as this. The least powerful cars probably do 0-60 in around 13 secs... you need do need a sensible amount of acceleration for things like joining motorways, etc.

[Sally Eva]

sorry, I'm probably out of date. I don't watch TV or go to the cinema much so I don't see adverts for cars.

What I am trying to say is that cars are advertised for speed (or were last time I noticed) and that, in practice, it is impossible in London to do these speeds and this causes frustration which finds an outlet in dangerous overtaking.

Brief bursts of dangerous speed in other words

[Sally Eva]

Oh well, that's one excuse for loud threatening revving behind me out of the window.

I now know that drivers behind me are doing it on purpose not just because it's difficult not to.

nunhead_man Wrote:

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> "drivers almost can't drive at 20mph without their

> engine making a terrible noise -- it's longing to

> go faster "

>

> I'm afraid that's rubbish Sally Eva - I have a

> motor with 350 bhp - two stage turbo flat 4 -

> that happily burbles along at 20mph in third gear

> at 2000 rpm at 20mph in London and goes into

> roller skate mode when on motorways

[Sally Eva]

Also, congratulations for doing 20mph in London.

[herne hilly]

I think the problem here is not the car, but the person behind the wheel. Most of us will be sensible drivers, if behind the wheel of a Porsche or a Nissan Micra. I have to agree, cars on HH are sometimes going A LOT faster than 30mph and the frightening thing is the undertaking into the bus lane travelling at 40+mph and approaching the zebra crossing by the shops. Slightly further afield, is the new layout in Brixton by the Currys. Bus lane is now wider and numerous times I have been in my lane going towards brixton and people (on other side) overtaking into my lane and happily travelling into oncoming traffic - sure its only a matter of time before there is a nasty crash.

[Earl Aelfheah]

I'm sure it would be possible to design 'smart' cars that couldn't break the limit. Of course no one would want them.

[Cardelia]

1) If a driver is being "undertaken" then, by definition, the lane to their left is empty. Unless there are obvious exceptions such as operational bus lanes or lots of parked cars, they should be driving in the left hand lane. Even in London the same rules of the road apply as they do to the rest of the country: drive in the left hand lane unless overtaking or maneuvering. The general standard of lane discipline in this country is absolutely appalling and whilst I don't deny there are some very stupid and dangerous drivers out there, that doesn't excuse the rest of us from not paying attention to the lane we should be in.

2) Cars are not speed-limited because quite a few people take their cars across national borders. In many other countries it is possible to drive legally and safely at speeds higher than 70 mph. Just because a powerful car is impractical for London driving, that doesn't mean that the owners don't also drive somewhere else where the power is much more useful.

3) Most new cars these days have a top speed in excess of 100 mph, for example the Prius can do over 110 mph. Even the Fiat 500, the very definition of a small city car, can do 100+ mph (apart from the most basic engine which tops out at a mere 99 mph). Buying one of these doesn't indicate an "ego trip or a definite intention to break the law", it just means you've bought a car.

4) Remapping an engine is perfectly possible and legal. However, it counts as a modification to your car which you need to declare to your insurer. Some insurers flat out refuse to insure a modified car and most others charge extra, hence you'll be likely be paying a higher premium than if you just left it alone. Also, remapping the engine won't physically change the gear ratios so it may not have the desired effect of making it "easier" to drive at 20 mph.

5) Most people who buy cars use practicalities like price, fuel economy, comfort, ride height, storage space etc. to make their decision. Power is usually a long way down the list of priorities. For example, the Ford Fiesta is the UK's most widely sold model (100,000+ sales in 2016) but only a tiny percentage of those are the high-spec ST variant which is sold on the basis of having lots of power. The same is true for pretty much all of the high-volume manufacturers; they know that power/speed doesn't sell anymore so they don't advertise cars on that basis.

[rendelharris]

The undertaking which goes on on Herne Hill and Denmark Hill takes place illegally in the bus lanes - the only places there are two lanes is where there's a bus lane, so nothing to do with lane discipline.

ETA and the speed limit on the entire stretch is 20MPH, so unless someone's doing less than that, which one never sees, the undertaker is also breaking the speed limit.

[Lowlander]

My 2.5L Turbo happily sits at 20mph. Cruise control is good for those long stretches.

Last time I drove along Denmark Hill one car overtook me, and seconds later another one undertook. Caught up with both of them at the lights on Red Post Hill.

On the plus side, more people do seem to be abiding by the 20 limit these days.

[Beej]

Do you know what, this probably won't be very popular but am I the only one SICK and TIRED of people (mainly mum's but dad's included) taking their little johnny to school and driving as slow as humanly possible, hogging the road like they're the only ones on it, or double parking in literally the most insane places to let their children out - you might have ALL the time in the bloody world, but some of us are trying to get to work! Where is your sense of urgency? has everyone retired already? If you want to move that slow - WALK or move to the country! Because regardless of the 20mph speed limit, it's the twats driving under it that send people into road rage and the only way to get around is to literally drive around them. 20 MPH is ridiculous but it's the law I agree, but underperforming drivers are not helping.

[Jeremy]

I only really drive on the weekends, but can't say I regularly get annoyed by people driving too slowly!

Stopping in stupid places, and worse still, suddenly stopping without adequate warning.. yes that certainly annoys me, kids or no kids.

[bobbsy]

well, technically, 20mph is the maximum speed limit - you don't legally have to drive that fast.

[Lowlander]

It's a speed limit, not a speed target. I've never come across anyone driving too slowly though (apart from maybe learner drivers, and we were all learners at one point).

Agree with you on poor parking. Particularly on zig-zag lines at zebra crossings. OT though.

[JohnL]

Lowlander Wrote:

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> It's a speed limit, not a speed target. I've

> never come across anyone driving too slowly though

> (apart from maybe learner drivers, and we were all

> learners at one point).

>

> Agree with you on poor parking. Particularly on

> zig-zag lines at zebra crossings. OT though.

I failed my first test for 'hesitancy'

Speed merchant tester :)

[Beej]

Lowlander Wrote:

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> I've never come across anyone driving too slowly though

> (apart from maybe learner drivers, and we were all

> learners at one point).

OMG???? Seriously? Do you live in your own cul-de-sac that only you drive around??? Can I join you?

[Lowlander]

Beej Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Lowlander Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I've never come across anyone driving too slowly

> though

> > (apart from maybe learner drivers, and we were

> all

> > learners at one point).

>

> OMG???? Seriously? Do you live in your own

> cul-de-sac that only you drive around??? Can I

> join you?

Seriously, yes, I've never in my life come across someone driving too slowly.

No, I don't live in a cul-de-sac.

Sure, it's easy, just relax a little. Or a lot, in your case.