Is the 484 the worst bus service in London ?

[Twirly]

I can see where both SMG and berryberry are talking about. If I'm coming from Camberwell, then I really like to get the 484 as it drops me at the end of my road. But I will also get the 176, 185 or 40 and get off at Goose Green and walk. But if the weather is foul, it's late or I'm laden with luggage or shopping or just plain knackered, then I'll wait for a 484, and sometimes you have to wait ages. I imagine it was something similar with the P13.

I actually find the 484 fairly reliable on the whole (and always have done, even a decade or more ago when I used it more than I do now). I'm using it more at the moment, and what is annoying me about it now is watching the bus sail past the stop in the morning as it's packed to the gunnels with school kids. As I whinged on the grumpy old women thread in the lounge yesterday, it was fine in the summer, but now the schools are back, commuters can't get on the wretched thing half the time. There is clearly sufficient demand for an increased frequency of service between 8 and 9am on weekdays during term-time.

[DJKillaQueen]

If a bus company publishes a timetable for a service....then they should be able to provide that service most of the time. I think it's perfectly fair to demand that from the bus company. Also, for the elderly, disabled etc, their only option often is the nearest bus stop and services that run from it. They can't walk a half mile to take another route.

[SeanMacGabhann]

DJ ? I?m not suggesting the elderly and infirm cast off their support and walk. I had made the assumption that it was a given I was talking about any able-bodied person

As for the bus ?companies publish a timetable and they should stick to it ? that?s ridiculously high-handed. It assumes that there is a bus company out there being lazy and feckless with it?s timetable when any study of traffic (and the link below is a doozy)

http://www.amazon.com/Traffic-Drive-What-Says-About/dp/0307264785

will show you just how much work is put into trying to do this. But surely you can see that a city the size of London, with the various traffic flows, jams, passenger demands etc etc will cause any timetable to be aspirational -it?s not like a train which runs on rails.. it?s shares space with many other factors

[DJKillaQueen]

Of course there will always be things that screw up timetables but even still it should be possible to have a consistent service most of the time (that's why we have bus lanes for example). Most bus companies employ timetable inspectors (monitoring drivers and buses) to do that.

It seems the grumbles are about those services that use the smaller 'hopper' buses and it may well be that the bus companies don't put as much effort into monitoring/ maintaining them - that's possible isn't it?

[DJKillaQueen]

I can give one example of something bus companies do. On days they have a driver shortage (say drivers are off sick - without prior notice) the company can't suddenly produce drivers so they'll keep the more popular and profitable routes running to timetable and remove buses from the smaller less profitable routes. I would suspect that the gaps in sevice on the 484 and P13 etc are usually the result of driver shortages on any given day/ shift.

My father worked for a bus company for 25 years and this was commonly what happened.

[Twirly]

A 45 minute gap in the service of a bus that probably runs every 20 minutes is quite big, though I have known worse. Surely it would take pretty major traffic disruption to knock two buses out of the timetable?

The problem with buses is that you simply don't know if it's worth hanging on to see if it'll turn up - the fear is that as soon as you step away from the bus stop, it'll come sailing past you, so you keep waiting, and waiting, and waiting... I thought that the Countdown system would improve matters, but it never seems to be on the bus stops that I wait at.

[SeanMacGabhann]

a fair point

[SeanMacGabhann]

But in the scenario you quote, what decision would you make on the day to keep buses running?

[The Minkey]

You've probably hit the nail spot on DJKQ

[skidmarks]

The grass is always greener. The bus you want never turns up but as you wait every other route arrives at least twice. It is just sod?s law?except when it comes to the 63 there are bloody hundreds of them!

All the bus companies are paid by TfL to provide a minimum level of service, there is no such thing as a profitable route for a bus company in London only for TfL who collects the money.

TfL tracks and monitors the bus routes through random checks, if two buses turn up at the same time TfL class this as one bus and only pay the company for one. It is in the bus company best interest to distribute the services evenly.

If you complain about a route enough to TfL something will happen.

The best thing Ken did is reverse what Thatcher did and regulate the buses in London once again.

[louisiana]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> Geez Louise I wasn't asking for your address! -

> Just the general area

>

> I have lived at the top end of Friern Road and

> along East Dulwich Grove - which are pretty far

> apart and I've never had a problem - If I had the

> possibility of standing at Camberwell Green for 45

> minutes I would either:

>

> a) walk to ED

> b) get the first bus towards Ed and get off at

> nearest P bus stop there

>

She was somewhere in Camberwell... but probably not near Camberwell Green (where the other buses ED-bound depart from) - the P13 doesn't go through C Green AFAIK.

[Bic Basher]

The current bus operator Go Ahead London/London Central has lost the contract to operate the 484 on behalf of TfL from March 2011. Abellio London who operate the 40 and P13 will take over.

[Applespider]

I can understand them not forking out to add the countdown timers to every bus stop in London in the current climate, useful though it would be.

But since the information is already out there driving the existing Countdown stops, couldn't they put it online in some format so that you could at least check it on your phone from the bus stop - or your computer before you leave the house? Make it an iPhone app and I'd even pay for it...

[Medley]

V. good point Applespider.

Agree with poster above about Ken and decent regulation. We are far - or rather governments have been far - too sceptical of decent regulation. When it's done well it's an enabling thing. When it's done badly, it's as crap or crappier than a 'free' market effort. London's transport doesn't do too badly for integration, although there are many wins to be had still (encouraging cycling, getting serious about river transport, changing Oyster charging to not penalise for switching mode).

As for this:

> All the bus companies are paid by TfL to provide a minimum level of service, there is no such thing as a profitable route > for a bus company in London only for TfL who collects the money.

You must be joking. How come FirstGroup, Stagecoach et al - who are used to absolutely bumper profits from their operations - bother operating London bus routes then?

[skidmarks]

Medley Wrote:

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>

> You must be joking. How come FirstGroup,

> Stagecoach et al - who are used to absolutely

> bumper profits from their operations - bother

> operating London bus routes then?

No, TfL tenders a bus contract as follows.

We want double decked buses no older than 5 years to the following timetable - 6 an hour 24 hours a day on the 37 route.

It goes out to three bus operators, they come back with a price, TfL go with the cheapest. (Simplistic I know but there are bonus and fines as well). That is regulation

It is up to the bus operator to provide that service for that money, the bus company makes their profits by cutting costs. All revenue from fares goes to TfL. The protest we saw today is TfL is reducing it subsidies but still wants the same level of bus service and the operators are cutting costs by freezing driver pay etc. they make their bumper profits by winning new routes from other operators and providing the service for less money than they?re been paid by TfL

[skidmarks]

Applespider Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I can understand them not forking out to add the

> countdown timers to every bus stop in London in

> the current climate, useful though it would be.

>

> But since the information is already out there

> driving the existing Countdown stops, couldn't

> they put it online in some format so that you

> could at least check it on your phone from the bus

> stop - or your computer before you leave the

> house? Make it an iPhone app and I'd even pay for

> it...

This coming it is called Ibus. Countdown is being phased out

Here

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/projectsandschemes/11560.aspx

[Applespider]

skidmarks Wrote:

> This coming it is called Ibus. Countdown is being

> phased out

>

> Here

> http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/projectsandschemes

> /11560.aspx

Great news - thank you for sharing!

[Lee Scoresby]

Thanx for all contributions. Clearly, not all respondents agree with me, some not at all. It does bother me that some contributors declare that things are fine only then to give descriptions of horrible service. What to say? Luck? Glass-half-full personality? In any event, it is proving a discussion worth having.

Bic Basher: brilliant news and it explains what's happening with the 484. It's corporate sulk - "We don't give a fuck anymore". That they can GET AWAY WITH doing it, now that's a Q. Let's hope Abellio make a better job of it. Can anyone tell us WHEN this changeover is going to happen ?

DJKQ and Skidmark: Your posts are extremely informative. Skidmark, in just a few sentences your posts of 5:11 and 10:31 simply lay bare the whole stupid corrupted tender system which our masters impose on us.

SeanMacGhabhann and many others: heavy traffic, roadworks, and most especially "the current [financial] situation", these are all fair points. But is there not a sense that these factors provide a smokescreen for a much more 'who's kidding who' situation? There are bus lanes, there are well-tried techniques to prevent bunching, and frequency times (not timetables, in fact) must be more than aspirational. These guys have a contract with we-the-people. Yes, SMG, I do think companies sometimes take the piss. And Skidmark (above) clearly explains how and why.

If a route is suffering vandalism (presume this is what is meant by "attacks") then prevention should be incentivised. Specifically, defaced vehicles should attract fines. Companies will then 'find it worthwhile' to employ sufficient heavyweight inspectors and employ other strategies.

Peckhampam: my point about doubling hopper (single deck) buses is that this the logical way to increase capacity at peak times. This should be regularised so that users are familiar with it and can expect it. I don't think a doubler could negotiate the route to Lewisham very easily.

Medley: absolutely agree. The city is a big human machine and these moving parts need to be REGULAR. Enough voodoo free market bullshit, already. Plenty of scope for entrepreneurship in more appropriate contexts.

The 37 did indeed improve to the point where it has been an excellent service - which is why recent falling off is worrying.

An online real-time schedule (iBus) is to be welcomed. Helsinki does it with their trams. But why scrap Countdown? Some of us are not online on the move. Old people often are not.

Kamamitykel: You seem to think this is just an attack on bus drivers. It isn't, not at all. We have all experienced a wide range of drivers, from cheerful and helpful to the very opposite. I think a reasonable criticism of drivers is that many of them fail properly to supervise their vehicles - in the matter of prams being all over the place, for example. But, I truly appreciate that it is a difficult and stressful job, one that is better respected in other European countries.

Nero and PeckhamRose: the answer to your Q lies with TonyQuinn's post. Complaining 'through channels' would be a waste of time. Why should we HAVE to battle so furiously in all the ways TQ describes just to have the transport system we want and need ?

More generally, to those referring to my post as a "rant" and a "whinge": I was certainly angry when I wrote. I would have expressed myself differently another time. It is supremely easy (and surely tempting) to be anonymously rude to first-posters and other participants, but that very ease might give you pause. Just much better to be constructive, even if disagreeing strongly. I raised the matter on the EDT (rather than elsewhere) to try to gauge and if possible focus local feeling on the matter.

Anyway . . . I love buses. When the system is working, movement is indeed a breeze and London opens up for you in the easiest and most pleasurable way. That's good public transport.

Lee Scorseby

[skidmarks]

Lee Scoresby Wrote:

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whole stupid corrupted tender system which our

> masters impose on us.

>

I would say it is a fair system what we have in London. We end up with the lowest cost (unless the operators collude) and a level service and all profits from increased patronage go back to TfL to improve bus services somewhere else.

The other way is what other cities where it is not regulated do; bus operators provide services on the profitable routes and the local council pay bus operators for services on non-profitable routes. What you end up with top notch service (at profitable times) on key routes by multiple operators with different colour buses resembling something out of scrap heap challenge.

In London TfL choose the routes decide the level of service and pay an operator to run that service?.imagine if say Stagecoach did this, do you think you?d have a night bus at 4am on a Tuesday?

TfL collects all the money from fares and uses it to pay for all the services in London.

[dita-on-tees]

Yes the cost of buses in london is very good value (certainly with oyster) I am always amazed when I go home at how expensive the bus service is - and there are few other transport options for many people. Buses are infrequent and dont seem to go where you want them to either. Certainly the lack of regulation and non profitable routes explains why the village bus service was not unlike something from the 1950s, with a bus from that era to boot.

Most of the problems with buses seem to stem from the phenomenol level of traffic which London roads were not designed to cope with. I used to rely on the P4 to get to work - the service in termtime and out of term time was completely different as the bus would get stuck in traffic in Dulwich Village from the school runs so you would wait for ages and 3 buses would turn up. Outside of term time - you could almost set your watch by the bus.

I rather like london buses as they are the perfect places to talk to stangers, particularly old ladies, I just cant help myself....

[Medley]

Sorry, skidmarks, but you can't have it both ways.

Either:

there is no such thing as a profitable route for a bus company in London only for TfL who collects the money. (your 1st post)

Or:

It is up to the bus operator to provide that service for that money, the bus company makes their profits by cutting costs. (your 2nd post).

Dita's right, London bus passengers get a great deal on fares, even after the rise to ?1.20. I'm constantly stunned by how expensive buses are in other UK cities where fares aren't as regulated. It's got the point in Leeds (my home town) where even if there are only two of you it's often almost as cheap to take a minicab. That's utterly crazy - the minicab is quicker (sometimes far quicker), always much comfier, inevitably more direct and about ?1 each more expensive! Madness. This is almost never true in London, thankfully for congestion.

School run point also very valid. The difference it makes to congestion never ceases to amaze me. Then I think of the practicalities of getting kids to nursery/school and oneself to work and it's less amazing.

My starting and finishing points with the UK in general are that public need systems like transport are best run in the public interest by the state. But the unions and the UK's generally slovenly attitudes (esp. in the public sector) long put paid to that. So instead we have to have well-regulated and partly centrally planned private sector service as the next best option. I think London's buses - with lots of room for improvement, especially on orbital and single-decker routes - work much better than lots of other bits of its transport network (National Rail trains come first to mind) and in turn that network works better than lots of other UK and world cities. Albeit lots worse than lots of other cities around the globe. London buses are also coping with crazy gaps in the London rail and tube network, mainly the result of a lack of strategic overview over decades and the inability of poorer areas to lobby effectively for transport spending, although that has changed somewhat.

[skidmarks]

Medley Wrote:

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> Sorry, skidmarks, but you can't have it both ways.

>

>

> Either:

> there is no such thing as a profitable route for a

> bus company in London only for TfL who collects

> the money. (your 1st post)

>

> Or:

> It is up to the bus operator to provide that

> service for that money, the bus company makes

> their profits by cutting costs. (your 2nd post).

>

>

Sorry, I was not clear in my first post. What I meant is that the bus operator are paid a fixed price to run a route by TfL. All the risk is with TfL

TfL promote and collect all revenue that service makes. A number of routes may generate more income from passengers than the cost TfL pay the operator - great for TfL. Many routes the cost to TfL will be more than what they collect in passenger revenue.

The bus operator always make a profit as the risk is with TfL?unless they run a poor service and are fined.

[Medley]

Ah, gotcha.

So it's like the rail companies in other words.

A dysfunctional model, but possibly less so than the free market racketeering you get by bus cos where they're less tightly regulated. E.g. First launched in Edinburgh against the locally owned and run (and excellent) bus co. ?1 ticket to travel anywhere all day. To start with. Then - guess what?! - once they'd got market share they jacked the prices up. Quick check shows it to now be ?3, which sounds more like it.

So I'd rather have the current system than those kinds of antics.

[trinity]

dita-on-tees Wrote:

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> Most of the problems with buses seem to stem from

> the phenomenol level of traffic which London roads

> were not designed to cope with. I used to rely on

> the P4 to get to work - the service in termtime

> and out of term time was completely different as

> the bus would get stuck in traffic in Dulwich

> Village from the school runs so you would wait for

> ages and 3 buses would turn up. Outside of term

> time - you could almost set your watch by the bus.

It a horrible viscious circle. The P4 is the perfect bus to get me and the kids to school but I can't use it as its too unreliable at rush hour and so I drive, further contributing to the congestion.

[Ladymuck]

As someone who makes around 95% of journeys by bike/foot, I guess my experience of buses is not going to be the same as someone who uses them on a regular basis. However I would say, for the 5% of the time that I do use public transport, that it generally serves its purpose well. My main concerns lie with the time that it can take and the cost (hence why I prefer to cycle). As regards the 484 specifically, I have taken to using this service on my football playing days (as I'm too whacked to cycle following a game LOL!). I have found that I can wait from anything up to an hour - Sundays are particularly appalling where a minimum of half an hour's wait is really not unusual. Having said that, I generally only use the service on a Wednesday evening/Sunday afternoon - so make of that what you will.