Pope faces protests and apathy on visit to Britain

[Huguenot]

I think you're being too literal with your interpretation.

If the author had not deliberately intended to create military associations he would have written "Onward Christian Children" or some such.

The next line is "marching as to war", which cannot be confused with "strolling to the petting zoo".

The fact is that these songs celebrate the link between religion and militarism, and it is daft not to think about religious marching militarism without thinking about the crusades.

The associations are clear as daylight, and to celebrate these songs is to celebrate oppression and jingoism.

[DJKillaQueen]

I have to conceed that the idea that anyone is a 'soldier' for Christ rather than a 'follower of' or 'believer in' does evoke a militaristic image, which can in turn only be associated with violent conquest. Extreme branches of Islam also refers to it's followers as soldiers of Islam, and there is no mistaking the intent there, for sure.

Having said that though, I think most people sing Jerusalem or OCS because they like the hymns (I personally love the music for Jerusalem) and pay little attention to what the lyrics really mean or represent.

[Magpie]

You were comparing Anglican hymns about spiritual renewal with Nazism - so it meets your definition of Godwin's law.

Not sure when the Salvation army have used violence to spread the word. Churchill used the hymn as inspiration to oppose rather than spread oppression. You deliberately interpret the words to suit your world view - yes military imagery is being used, but in an evangelical message - go and be Christs soldier's, conduct a war on poverty, ignorance, want, bring enlightenment etc Its a metaphor and only a metaphor.

The first verse of Jerusalem is a set of questions - ie have we created Jerusalem in the UK - the second answer suggests that we haven't and hence need to struggle to do so - it is not jingoistic.

The Pope was criticising the failure of the UK to maintain its Christian heritage in general - not the break with Rome.

And anyway as I said before - I just like the tunes. It must be a pretty miserable existance disapproving of everything.

[Magpie]

"I have to conceed that the idea that anyone is a 'soldier' for Christ rather than a 'follower of' or 'believer in' does evoke a militaristic image, which can in turn only be associated with violent conquest."

I'm not sure it can only be associated with violent conquest. Soldier can be associated with defender, discipline, supporter, follower etc

[Huguenot]

"You were comparing Anglican hymns about spiritual renewal with Nazism - so it meets your definition of Godwin's law."

I was doing nothing of the sort.

I was talking about the use of Anglican hymns to inspire war, and that religion was used often dishonestly to inspire war. The recent misrepresentation of the Nazis as atheists by the pope on his vist was a good, relevant and timely example.

[DJKillaQueen]

That's true...soldier can be defined as someone who works for a cause.

But just to look at the lyrics from the view of poetry (forget religion for the moment) gives a different perspective. The poet has made metaphorical comparisons to military symbolism, using works like marching, and war. If this were a poetry class, we be told to ask why the poet chose to use those symbolic comparisons. It's an analogy that the poet has purposefully chosen. In that repsect H's arguement has plenty of merit. It may not be the only reasoning but it's certainly a valid one, and not lost on those that have chosen to adpot it for such purposes.

Jerusalem however, started life as a poem by William Blake.

Wiki says:

The poem was inspired by the apocryphal story that a young Jesus, accompanied by his uncle Joseph of Arimathea, travelled to the area that is now England and visited Glastonbury.[2] The legend is linked to an idea in the Book of Revelation (3:12 and 21:2) describing a Second Coming, wherein Jesus establishes a new Jerusalem. The Christian church in general, and the English Church in particular, used Jerusalem as a metaphor for Heaven

In the most common interpretation of the poem, Blake implies that a visit of Jesus would briefly create heaven in England, in contrast to the "dark Satanic Mills" of the Industrial Revolution. Analysts note that Blake asks four questions rather than stating a visit to be true. According to this view, the poem says that there may, or may not, have been a divine visit, when there was briefly heaven in England. But that was then; now, we are faced with the challenge of creating such a country once again.

Again it's very much a poem of it's time. Blake saw the mills and factories as the enslavement of millions in poor conditions and he was railing against that as much as creating any idea that England would be a place of biblical importance. It was originally adopted as a socialist anthem by the workers and unions, but with the onset of WW1 became adopted as an anthem of what England was fighting for. Again, it's use has no clear perspective or perhaps relevance today, but at least the poet knew very much what he was saying at the time he wrote it.

[Magpie]

It doesn't imply any superiority of England over anything - it is about heaven being created in England - hence its adoption by socialists - its inward looking - not jingoistic or aggressive.

[Huguenot]

I think you'd have to agree that elevating England to heavenly status - the ultimate achievement - is indeed someway superior?

I think if you start asserting that you have a 'special relationship' with God as a nation that your neighbours are going to consider that a wee bit self-aggrandising. That is, after all, the reason why you get goosebumps when you sing it.

These responses are becoming a little bit obtuse Magpie, you seem to be deliberately not see obvious connections and metaphors.

[Magpie]

Getting a bit bored of this - and we are way off topic - and actually no idea why I'm being so defensive.

To immply that the CoE has been anything other than a benign organisation for the last 100 years is rather odd, its about the least militaritic organisation possible - some of the hymns may contain military imagery, but they are hardly encouraging a violent crusade against unbelievers, and certainly a few grannies singing them today hardly draws connotations of Jackboots (which if not a reference to Nazisim I don't know what is) or the crusades.

If Churchill used a hymn for inspiration at possibly the darkest time in this countries history against an incredibly evil regime then so what? If you find Jerusalem distastefully jingoistic then I don't really care, its a great tune, the words are inspiring, and to be honest I see nothing wrong with a bit of national pride and love of country now and again. As I keep pointing out its not an aggressive hymn.

Perhaps I'm guilty of poor examples - had I said "Great Redeemer" and "Abide with me" you would have had little to argue about.

My original point was that the Catholic Church is under no obligation to listen and adjust its doctrine as a result of secular criticism, indeed the fact that it ignores secular opinion is what makes it so powerful. The CoE in contrast follows the prevailing social mores, and as a result is dying on its feet.

[Huguenot]

Well it is a thread about religion, protest and apathy Magpie, so it's supposed to be about all these things.

I totally agree that in the last 100 years the CoE has been a benign institution, and the Catholic religion has not.

The irony is that this CoE compassionate phase also coincides with the rise of religious expression through softie stuff like kum by yar and tambourines.

In contrast the Catholic church has retained the bombast, shock & awe and power hierarchy, and has simultaneously maintained the cruelty which sees millions of dying of AIDs and paedophiles being bussed around the country to commit their vile crimes on a new generation of children.

I remain absolutely convinced that there is a cause and effect relationship between the two elements.

[DJKillaQueen]

I would say that the more fear a religion indoctrinates into those unfortunate enough to be born into it, the more sucessful it us...but only because of the guilt and fear it instills in it's followers (ususally the fear of being ostricised from a community or heaven). And if we take Islam....there are several countries where it's inhabitants have no option but to follow Islamic tradition with unhappy consequences if they don't. It used to be the case for Catholic countries too but thankfully Catholic rule was destroyed some time ago.

[????]

and I've said before look at those societies that have taken 'rational' secularism to its extreme and banned or pesecuted religion

Mao's China

Stalin's Russia

Pol Pot's Cambodia

..to name a few

[mockney piers]

And every time you say it I say that they have nothing to do with secularism, that they were not bad societies because of a lack of religion. It is simply a straw man, or do i mean red herring, or straw herring perhaps?

All of the above used terror in the way Robespierre would have approved, to shape a just society by the breaking of the old order and to destroy its enemies. The problem that they always find is that of course rational people don't like terror and thus all society becomes the enemy of the revolution.

This found it's logical conclusion in Pol Pot's year zero and the killing fields. It's not a secular vs religion issue, it's that principled revolutionaries don't live in the real world, but the murder they commit unfortunately does.

Extremist philosophy of their ilk also has much more in common with the eschatological strands in most religions than it does with enlightenment principles, as i think I'm now tired of saying every time you bang this tiresome drum.

[louisiana]

Jerusalem is not a hymn and is banned in many churches.

Blake was strongly against organised religion, and was tried for making seditious statements against the head of the Church of England. But he did see angels (here on the Rye) and I think also thought that angels spoke to him. But then he was a bit potty.

I see the poem as an appeal to the people to tell the truth of the horrors they see in the mills, collieries etc. to enable society to move forward. Blake wants to be taken to a heavenly place (in that chariot of fire) and removed from the work of the devil, which is what he could see developing around and about in London.

All a bit pastoral-mystical.