ED Barber - homophobia? racism? and a bad haircut

[monica]

Before we moved away, my hubby used the barbers just opposite Bells Kitchens, he always found them very pleasant and conversed with them lightheartedly, as you would in a Barbers.

Hope you are feeling better Jim1234, it can be quite intimidating when that happens, first its rude to speak another language in front of someone who does not speak the language and second you did the right thing by calling them out on it ..

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

monica Wrote:

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>first its

> rude to speak another language in front of someone

> who does not speak the language

Don't talk rubbish.

[titch juicy]

red devil Wrote:

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> titch juicy Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > It seems the term 'immigrant chap' has caused

> some

> > folks to lose their shit.

>

> The problem is that 'immigrant', along with

> 'refugee', is becoming a derogatory term, even in

> the playground it's become an insult. As with

> anything it's all about context, but I suspect the

> poster who used that term knew exactly what they

> were writing...

I really didn't get that from their post and I'm usually very sensitive to such things. But I could be completely wrong of course. And I genuinely didn't realise that it had become a term of abuse. I could picture it in the playground I suppose, but among adults?! Blimey.

[Northeastview]

peckham_ryu Wrote:

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> Sorry everyone, but can we get back to what's

> important here please?

>

> the_gamechanger Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Did he say where he got the pills from?

Can I second that? There is an important message buried here somewhere

[DulwichFox]

Let me try and make some sort of sense out of all this..

Turkey relies on Tourism.. Travelers from all over the world visit Turkey every year.

In the 30 years I have been traveling to Turkey I have not come across blatent hostility with foreign tourists.

I am not fluent in Turkish but can pick out most of the 'vulgar' terms and words being spoken.

But.. The Turks young and old seem to be obsessed with big willies and (taking it up the batty.) as the OP posted.

Any one who has travelled to Turkey or Greece would of seen the statues in the Museums there.

Talking about these things are a bit 'Rude' Like small children here say ' Bum ' and giggle..

I do not think that the guys at Mems are being intentionally Homophobic.

I have spoken to 100's of young Turkish waiters many of which will be appauled at people using offensive language in their bars.

The reference to the Abreviated Pakistani word was not about the Race but what they were supposedly selling .

I do not think The staff at Mems were being intentionally Racist.

The Pills.. Turkey is awash with 'V iagra' I'm not too sure if it is available over the Pharmacy counter.

But there is 'Mock' V iagra everywhere.. In every shop... market...

I think this whole thread needs to be re-assessed and conclusions not jumped too.

DulwichFox

[Sue]

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> monica Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> >first its

> > rude to speak another language in front of

> someone

> > who does not speak the language

>

> Don't talk rubbish.

It's not rubbish.

It's quite clearly rude, and particularly when the other people are customers.

A friend of mine once overheard herself being discussed by two complete strangers sitting near her on a train. They were somewhat taken aback when she spoke to them in the same (quite obscure) language.

[Sue]

DulwichFox Wrote:

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> Let me try and make some sort of sense out of all

> this..

>

> Turkey relies on Tourism.. Travelers from all over

> the world visit Turkey every year.

> In the 30 years I have been traveling to Turkey I

> have not come across blatent hostility with

> foreign tourists.

> I am not fluent in Turkish but can pick out most

> of the 'vulgar' terms and words being spoken.

>

> But.. The Turks young and old seem to be obsessed

> with big willies and (taking it up the batty.) as

> the OP posted.

> Any one who has travelled to Turkey or Greece

> would of seen the statues in the Museums there.

>

> Talking about these things are a bit 'Rude' Like

> small children here say ' Bum ' and giggle..

>

> I do not think that the guys at Mems are being

> intentionally Homophobic.

> I have spoken to 100's of young Turkish waiters

> many of which will be appauled at people using

> offensive language in their bars.

>

> The reference to the Abreviated Pakistani word was

> not about the Race but what they were supposedly

> selling .

> I do not think The staff at Mems were being

> intentionally Racist.

>

> The Pills.. Turkey is awash with 'V iagra' I'm

> not too sure if it is available over the Pharmacy

> counter.

> But there is 'Mock' V iagra everywhere.. In every

> shop... market...

>

> https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5145/5649095039_7c3

> ab22570.jpg

>

> I think this whole thread needs to be re-assessed

> and conclusions not jumped too.

>

I don't know what tourism in Turkey and the lack of hostility to tourists has to do with anything. We are talking about a barbers in East Dulwich.

I don't know how you can possibly know whether they intended to be intentionally homophobic or not!

Quite regardless of whether what you say about Turkey is generally true (and I've been to Turkey and didn't come across anything like that) if people are running a business in this country which involves face-to-face contact with customers, then they should be sensitive to how what they say is likely to be received.

The statues in the museums are quite irrelevant. You find the same in Greece. Yes they sell replicas as a bit of fun for the tourists with smutty minds and a childish sense of humour, but that is a completely different issue. How you can possibly say that because of that, "Turks seem to be obsessed with big willies" is absolutely beyond me.

And quite apart from the homophobic issues, you say "The reference to the Abbreviated Pakistani word was not about the race but what they were supposedly selling."

Surely you must realise that talking about "Pakis in the street" is just not acceptable.

Several people on this thread have said that they felt uncomfortable in that barbers. Are you suggesting that they should not have done?

[jim_the_chin]

This whole problem could be avoided if they and other barbers followed the golden rule: the only thing that a gentleman should have with his haircut is complete and utter silence.

[edcase]

Indeed jim. Who was it that replied, upon being asked how he would like his hair cut,'in complete silence please'.

...oh god, that was Enoch Powell. Forget I mentioned it...

[DulwichFox]

I would not expect Sue to understand or agree with me on any subject even if I said The Ivy House was a great place

Sue would simply see DulwichFox and the Ivy House and assume I was slagging it off.

Having studied the Turkish language and culture on a three year course and visiting the country on numerous occasions

over the last 25-30 years I have a good insight into the people and their up-bringing.

I talk to the Turkish community in East Dulwich in restaurants and have some Turkish friends..

We call people from Afghanistan Afghanis not Afghanistanis. It is grammatically correct.

..and so is true of Pakistanis.. The abbreviated version of Pakistani became offensive by it's use by far right groups.

When I was a kid.. 1960. on a Sunday my mum might say.

"Michael.. we've run out of milk.. can go round the P**** shop. They'll still be open."

She was not being racist.. offensive. Did not mean anything.

We have become obsessed with P.C. there used to be a road sign .. 'Accident Black Spot.

I believe it is now banned..

DulwichFox

[Zebedee Tring]

My Welsh daughter in law is bilingual and was able to respond in Welsh in strong terms to a couple of women in a restaurant who were slagging off in Welsh a member of our family who had said something quite innocuous in English to which the women had for some reason taken exception.

If barbers, supermarket check out people etc talk to their colleagues in a language that the customer doesn't understand, they could easily be slagging off the customer who will be none the wiser. This is unacceptable, to put it politely.

[Louisa]

DulwichFox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I would not expect Sue to understand or agree with

> me on any subject even if I said The Ivy House was

> a great place

> Sue would simply see DulwichFox and the Ivy House

> and assume I was slagging it off.

>

> Having studied the Turkish language and culture

> on a three year course and visiting the country on

> numerous occasions

> over the last 25-30 years I have a good insight

> into the people and their up-bringing.

>

> I talk to the Turkish community in East Dulwich

> in restaurants and have some Turkish friends..

>

> We call people from Afghanistan Afghanis not

> Afghanistanis. It is grammatically correct.

> ..and so is true of Pakistanis.. The abbreviated

> version of Pakistani became offensive by it's use

> by far right groups.

>

> When I was a kid.. 1960. on a Sunday my mum

> might say.

>

> "Michael.. we've run out of milk.. can go round

> the P**** shop. They'll still be open."

> She was not being racist.. offensive. Did not

> mean anything.

>

> We have become obsessed with P.C. there used to

> be a road sign .. 'Accident Black Spot.

>

> https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2528/4225113927_ba7

> 585aabd_z.jpg?zz=1

>

> I believe it is now banned..

>

> DulwichFox

Foxy I do agree the world has become P.C. mad, and I'm sure in certain circumstances the use of certain words is all about context and who is using them. Not every single person using an offensive word is knowingly being nasty about a group of people. However, in this day and age, with everything that has gone on and in the world it would be incredibly naive for an individual who is not part of any said minority, to then use a phrase which has become synonymous with racism and far right groups, and then hold their hands up and say "not me guv", wouldn't you agree? If a Pakistani friend of theirs was getting their haircut in the barbers and they used the phrase to him and everyone laughed it would be an entirely different context, arguably.

On the topic of Sue I do have to agree though, every time I say or do anything these days Sue seems to disagree with me for whatever reason. Even when I'm being impassioned on a topic that means something to me. The burger joint 'look at me' thread being a perfect example of this. I dot think she often agrees with me or you on anything. I know it's all fun and games on the forum, but just a genuine observation. Sue, would you like to comment?

Louisa.

[monica]

Excuse me!!! I guess your not polite then, I am bi lingual and would never speak Italian in front on people who do not understand the language. So no I am not talking rubbish. Eeejit

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> monica Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> >first its

> > rude to speak another language in front of

> someone

> > who does not speak the language

>

> Don't talk rubbish.

[rendelharris]

DulwichFox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> We have become obsessed with P.C. there used to

> be a road sign .. 'Accident Black Spot.

>

> I believe it is now banned..

>

> DulwichFox

Urban myth Fox, they were either removed when safety measures (traffic calming, safety cameras etc) lowered the accident rate or were replaced with the generally agreed to be more effective "18 fatalities on this road since 1999" or similar signs. They were never banned and nothing to do with any political correctness - the term "accident blackspot" is still in current use and I've never seen anyone suggest it shouldn't be. It's like the old story that the GLC banned people from asking for "black coffee" in County Hall - just didn't happen.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

monica Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Excuse me!!! I guess your not polite then, I am bi

> lingual and would never speak Italian in front on

> people who do not understand the language. So no I

> am not talking rubbish. Eeejit

You don't have a right to other people's conversations. What an overblown sense of entitlement you people have. If you don't speak the language I feel like speaking to someone that's not you, you don't get to hear it. This is one of the most linguistically diverse cities on earth. You're not going to get far huffing and puffing and insisting that other people only speak a language that you know when you're around.

[Jah Lush]

DulwichFox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> When I was a kid.. 1960. on a Sunday my mum

> might say.

>

> "Michael.. we've run out of milk.. can go round

> the P**** shop. They'll still be open."

> She was not being racist.. offensive. Did not

> mean anything.

Oh dear me, tut tut tut...Yes it did. Sheer ignorance. The people running the shop could have been Bengali, Indian, Sri Lankan, Ugandan Asian etc etc, though it is entirely within the realms of possibility they were actually from Pakistan but it is also quite possible that your mother didn't bother to find out where they were from or any other person using that awful term back then but called them P***s anyway because of the colour of their skin. It was then and it is even more so now offensive and racist and this isn't the 1960s.

As for your Accident Black Spot sign... deary me. You silly old sausage.

[rendelharris]

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You don't have a right to other people's

> conversations. What an overblown sense of

> entitlement you people have. If you don't speak

> the language I feel like speaking to someone

> that's not you, you don't get to hear it. This is

> one of the most linguistically diverse cities on

> earth. You're not going to get far huffing and

> puffing and insisting that other people only speak

> a language that you know when you're around.

There are valid arguments on both sides here, but I think most people would say that when you're providing a personal service such as barbering to someone a) your focus should be on your client, not on chatting with your workmate and b) you shouldn't make your client feel uncomfortable wondering if they're being slagged in a language they can't understand over their heads. On a bus, in a pub, on the street, by all means speak any language you wish and nobody has a right to say otherwise, if you're being paid to provide a service and you're capable of speaking the client's language I'd say it's common courtesy to use it.

Paris is one of the most amusing places for this - having been brought up for a few years on the continent my French is reasonably good, it's always fun to listen for a bit to waiters being rude about the English tourists then start speaking to them in French...though nothing on earth will puncture the arrogance of a Parisian waiter!

[drewd]

The post with the Black Spot sign inserted is the most ridiculous thing I have heard in a very long time. Did this forum do some kind of deal with the Daily Express to double up as one of their comments pages?

[camberwell70]

I do my own hair.

[pop9770]

A little disturbing is there a darker side to consider here? apologists ..

At what point is it reasonable / acceptable to stop someone making excuses for bigotry?

It does appear to me that the elephant in the barbershop is something very few want to discuss highlight or acknowledge

1. Do many on here think these barbers are accepting of our laws values and freedoms just jokers?

2. Or do they see them as bigots full of hatred of our liberal culture, a serious elitist problem?

3. Or a grey area somewhere between the two simply a lack of knowledge, uneducated bigotry?

Our beliefs are at the core of who we are and how we see others .. elitist belief systems appear to be at the heart of these issues..

Such problems have little hope of being resolved if open discussion is stifled by misplaced political correctness

a worrying problem that exposes a double standard ..

A mad mix of ideology and culture makes for an interesting society that's for sure, sadly it doesn't make for a comfortable or safe world.

Elitism is truly the enemy of all humanity, be it the liberal elitism shown in some posts here or the elitism at the barbershop.. no excuse for either imho .

[monica]

Seriously this thread has gone off the rails. Hillbilly unless you have been brought up in a bi lingual house where you are taught to speak one language at home and english everywhere else outside the home, then you have no idea what you are going on about.I have been speaking English and Italian from a very young age, If i want to speak english in front of non Italian speakers, then I will continue to do so. You have a very arrogant attitude, and who are you people??? What do you mean by you people????

You are very rude and seriously need to wind your neck in. I came on here to help console the op, and all i get is crap from you. Back off

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> monica Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Excuse me!!! I guess your not polite then, I am

> bi

> > lingual and would never speak Italian in front

> on

> > people who do not understand the language. So no

> I

> > am not talking rubbish. Eeejit

>

> You don't have a right to other people's

> conversations. What an overblown sense of

> entitlement you people have. If you don't speak

> the language I feel like speaking to someone

> that's not you, you don't get to hear it. This is

> one of the most linguistically diverse cities on

> earth. You're not going to get far huffing and

> puffing and insisting that other people only speak

> a language that you know when you're around.

[Sue]

Louisa Wrote:

-----------------------------------------

>

>

> Foxy I do agree the world has become P.C. mad, and

> I'm sure in certain circumstances the use of

> certain words is all about context and who is

> using them. Not every single person using an

> offensive word is knowingly being nasty about a

> group of people. However, in this day and age,

> with everything that has gone on and in the world

> it would be incredibly naive for an individual who

> is not part of any said minority, to then use a

> phrase which has become synonymous with racism and

> far right groups, and then hold their hands up and

> say "not me guv", wouldn't you agree? If a

> Pakistani friend of theirs was getting their

> haircut in the barbers and they used the phrase to

> him and everyone laughed it would be an entirely

> different context, arguably.

>

> On the topic of Sue I do have to agree though,

> every time I say or do anything these days Sue

> seems to disagree with me for whatever reason.

> Even when I'm being impassioned on a topic that

> means something to me. The burger joint 'look at

> me' thread being a perfect example of this. I dot

> think she often agrees with me or you on anything.

> I know it's all fun and games on the forum, but

> just a genuine observation. Sue, would you like to

> comment?

>

Yes I'll comment.

My comment is that everybody can see what you, Fox and I have said on any thread on here.

They can make their own minds up if they can be bothered.

It's ridiculous to say that I would disagree with anybody for the sake of it, however it is true that some posters do seem to make quite frequent posts that I disagree with.

That's got nothing to do with the person. It's got everything to do with the content of their posts.

If you think otherwise, then do feel free to give some specific examples. Perhaps you could start a separate thread about how you think you and Fox are being "persecuted" just because you are you, rather than on the basis of your views as expressed on here.

I don't think this thread is an appropriate place for it.

[Sue]

DulwichFox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I would not expect Sue to understand or agree with

> me on any subject even if I said The Ivy House was

> a great place

> Sue would simply see DulwichFox and the Ivy House

> and assume I was slagging it off.

How ridiculous.

Are you suggesting I respond to your posts without reading them?

You do seem to post a lot of things I don't agree with, but I'm disagreeing with the content of your posts. It is not personal.

Why do you need to turn it into something about you?

[Tuffstuff100]

Now now - let's all play fairly.

[Bic Basher]

Can this thread be lounged again? It's become even more ridiculous than the original post.