Its gonna be President Trump ..!!! ??

[rendelharris]

Mick Mac Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Not as important as wider issue, but at least the

> predicted meltdown in the financial markets hasn't

> happened (US/UK anyway - the Dow Jones and FTSE

> are up).

Though as with Brexit, we won't really know the effects until he actually is in power.

[Elphinstone's Army]

a chill shuddered through me, on reading your last sentence, RH

[Jules-and-Boo]

it shows people are disontented and willing to take a chance on the unknown than stay with what they know - and isn't working.

Expect the same across Europe.

[Salsaboy]

Democracy in action.

[????]

Le Pen's next (I've had a bet); and expect a GE in Italy after their constitutional referendum next month....

[Louisa]

I stayed up all night with a bottle, and was intrigued by the result. The so called 'rust belt' of the north/north east of America is a fascinating comparable with the poorest regions of our own north and midlands. Traditional Democratic heartlands totally disillusioned with four decades plus of economic stagnation, and the collapse of manufacturing. Those northern states swung it for Trump, ethnically white in the main, blue collar and down at heel.

When will the political establishment finally wake up to the overwhelming ground swell of despair which has been bubbling under the surface of many, many western democracies? I have to blame the left of centre elites in particular for their continued disconnect with their natural support base, but again, there's something bigger going on and that's not the exclusive issue here. Populists like Farage, Trump, Le Pen and others will continue to take advantage of a political vacuum on the centre ground (left of centre in particular), until a voice can rise to help resolve the slow death of manufacturing, and its aftermath, including the easy scapegoat options for the disenfranchised, more particularly - immigration.

Louisa.

[rendelharris]

Louisa, what you say simply isn't the case and is really quite insulting to the working class whom I believe you generally support. Of the one third of Americans who earn less than $50,000 a year, more voted for Clinton than Trump, for the 2/3 earning more than that, vice versa. 54% of college educated white males voted for Trump. White college educated women were the only white group who voted in favour of Clinton (and then only 51% of them). Trump would be delighted to have people think this is some great uprising from the deprived heartlands, but in fact it's got just as much to do with middle class whites who want lower taxes and to stop paying for Obamacare and other social security as anything else.

[rendelharris]

Elphinstone's Army Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> a chill shuddered through me, on reading your last

> sentence, RH

I know, it's supposed to be wrong to wish for anyone's death but I can't help thinking a heart attack between now and January would do the world a big favour. Actually I don't care if it's wrong, I hope the bastard drops dead before he can do the harm he's promised. Though I have no idea what Pence is like, presumably if prepared to be on the same ticket as that filth not terribly nice.

[????]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Louisa, what you say simply isn't the case and is

> really quite insulting to the working class whom I

> believe you generally support. Of the one third

> of Americans who earn less than $50,000 a year,

> more voted for Clinton than Trump, for the 2/3

> earning more than that, vice versa. 54% of

> college educated white males voted for Trump.

> White college educated women were the only white

> group who voted in favour of Clinton (and then

> only 51% of them). Trump would be delighted to

> have people think this is some great uprising from

> the deprived heartlands, but in fact it's got just

> as much to do with middle class whites who want

> lower taxes and to stop paying for Obamacare and

> other social security as anything else.

I think your analysis is simplistic and mixing up class & race with income here Rendel. Afro-americans are vastly over represented in the lowest income groups and the majority of them, who voted, almost certainly voted Clinton hence your conclusion. My suspicion is the majority of white working class voted Trump, so i don't think Louisa's analysis is insulting, I think it's correct.

[rendelharris]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I think your analysis is simplistic and mixing up

> class & race with income here Rendel.

> Afro-americans are vastly over represented in the

> lowest income groups and the majority of them, who

> voted, almost certainly voted Clinton hence your

> conclusion. My suspicion is the majority of white

> working class voted Trump, so i don't think

> Louisa's analysis is insulting, I think it's

> correct.

I said I thought it was insulting to the working class, not just the white working class. As I pointed out, the majority of white middle class voters also voted Trump, so this result is not simply the righteous white working class anger Trump would like it to be seen as, it's far, far more complex, more selfish and less "glorious" than that.

[BrandNewGuy]

According to that exit poll (and we should beware of that...), yes, 53% of Americans who earn less than $30,000 a year voted for Clinton, while 41% voted for Trump, but that represented a swing of 16% from Dem to Rep, the biggest swing either way in all income brackets. For $30,000-$50,000 it was a 6% swing from Dem to Rep, while in fact both the $50,000-$100,000 and $100,000-$200,000 brackets saw swings from Rep to Dem.

[red devil]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Le Pen's next (I've had a bet); and expect a GE in

> Italy after their constitutional referendum next

> month....

Fookin' 'ell Quids, where's your scruples, can't you bet on things with nice, happy, fluffy bunny outcomes, like will it snow on Christmas Day? :)...

[????]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ???? Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > I think your analysis is simplistic and mixing

> up

> > class & race with income here Rendel.

> > Afro-americans are vastly over represented in

> the

> > lowest income groups and the majority of them,

> who

> > voted, almost certainly voted Clinton hence

> your

> > conclusion. My suspicion is the majority of

> white

> > working class voted Trump, so i don't think

> > Louisa's analysis is insulting, I think it's

> > correct.

>

> I said I thought it was insulting to the working

> class, not just the white working class. As I

> pointed out, the majority of white middle class

> voters also voted Trump, so this result is not

> simply the righteous white working class anger

> Trump would like it to be seen as, it's far, far

> more complex, more selfish and less "glorious"

> than that.

Who mentions - "glorious", or "righteous" anger etc? other than you, Louisa or me don't - i think you have a pretty binary view on people's view on people's politics, fairly standard for many on the left , and Louisa and me are in your baddy camp so you think our analysis is somehow supportive of Trump's victory - i can't see anything in either of our posts that suggest this, so, you must 'think' it's our underlying view or something? Hence you adding of glorious and righteous. I think Louisa called this well to be honest.

[????]

red devil Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> ???? Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Le Pen's next (I've had a bet); and expect a GE

> in

> > Italy after their constitutional referendum

> next

> > month....

>

>

> Fookin' 'ell Quids, where's your scruples, can't

> you bet on things with nice, happy, fluffy bunny

> outcomes, like will it snow on Christmas Day?

> :)...

I have won money on the Tories and Trump so far this year RD, all about value in gambling so Le Pen at 7/2. I also bet on Corbyn to win the Labour leadership (poorer odds as it was nailed on) and i didn't want that outcome either!

[Louisa]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Louisa, what you say simply isn't the case and is

> really quite insulting to the working class whom I

> believe you generally support. Of the one third

> of Americans who earn less than $50,000 a year,

> more voted for Clinton than Trump, for the 2/3

> earning more than that, vice versa. 54% of

> college educated white males voted for Trump.

> White college educated women were the only white

> group who voted in favour of Clinton (and then

> only 51% of them). Trump would be delighted to

> have people think this is some great uprising from

> the deprived heartlands, but in fact it's got just

> as much to do with middle class whites who want

> lower taxes and to stop paying for Obamacare and

> other social security as anything else.

I think you are confusing a few variables here rendel. Whilst I agree the white vote, of all socio economic backgrounds vastly swung behind Trump, rich and poor, it was the very poorest 'rust belt' states, which are traditionally Democratic strongholds anyway, which gave him the Electoral College votes he needed ultimately to secure president elect.

If you look at Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan etc they have larger white populations, who are overwhelmingly voting Trump outside of major urban districts (the small Andy medium sized mining towns), where the majority of the population are poor and suffering. The swing state small towns ultimately shifted this election in favour of Trump. They were being ignored by Clinton and the Democrats, she didn't even visit some of these states. They took these votes for granted, and allowed the political vacuum to occur.

Louisa.

[rendelharris]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Who mentions - "glorious", or "righteous" anger

> etc? other than you, Louisa or me don't - i think

> you have a pretty binary view on people's view on

> people's politics, fairly standard for many on the

> left , and Louisa and me are in your baddy camp so

> you think our analysis is somehow supportive of

> Trump's victory - i can't see anything in either

> of our posts that suggest this, so, you must

> 'think' it's our underlying view or something?

> Hence you adding of glorious and righteous. I

> think Louisa called this well to be honest.

Drop the ego Quids, not everything is all about you - by "glorious" and "righteous" anger I was referring to the way Trump and his supporters would like it to be seen, nothing to do with anything you or Louisa said. And were I childish enough to have a "baddy camp" Louisa wouldn't be in it.

[Seabag]

A baddy camp, I just love the sound of that

How much to pitch up for a weekend RH?

[rendelharris]

Seabag Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> A baddy camp, I just love the sound of that

>

> How much to pitch up for a weekend RH?

Free entry if you bring a goody along for balance.

[TheArtfulDogger]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Seabag Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > A baddy camp, I just love the sound of that

> >

> > How much to pitch up for a weekend RH?

>

> Free entry if you bring a goody along for balance.

I can get bill oddie - does he count?

[Salsaboy]

It's not just the working class of America.

I have a friend who lives in a very affluent part of New Jersey. She and her husband are well educated, he is in a very senior banking job and she doesn't need to work, they are very very wealthy, children attend private schools etc. etc. Both voted for Trump as 'he knows what is right for the United States'.

[Louisa]

Salsaboy New Jersey isn't a swing state. This is the whole point that I was making to rendel. We all know that affluent white Americans supported Trump too, that's hardly surprising considering he's been promising tax cuts. I'm sure Dulwich Cillage has many Tory voters but we still end up with a Labour MP come election time. The electoral college is the important thing to remember, notthe popular vote here. The main issue which many people can't understand or won't, is that disgruntled white working class voters in the all important swing and usually Democrat leaning states of the north east in particular, didn't go for Clinton. If they had, you'd have a president elect Hillary today. They went for Trump in numbers they wouldn't usually do for a Republican, because of a whole host of reasons. That's what won him this election, and the centre left need to address this issue.

Louisa.

[DulwichFox]

So was it people voting for Trump.. or people NOT voting for Clinton..

There was only 2 choices.. Like asking a Vegan if they want Chicken or Lamb for dinner.

Foxy

[Mick Mac]

rendelharris Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Mick Mac Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Not as important as wider issue, but at least

> the

> > predicted meltdown in the financial markets

> hasn't

> > happened (US/UK anyway - the Dow Jones and FTSE

> > are up).

>

> Though as with Brexit, we won't really know the

> effects until he actually is in power.

Short term with the financial markets its all about perception. A lot of people predicted a mass sell off if Trump were to win, its a relief that it didn't happen. Asia has now bounced back overnight too. We all suffer when the markets are hit.

In the longer term I always thought Trump would be good for business in the US, no issues there. He will make the US stronger in business internationally, of that I have no doubt. In the long term socialism makes a country weak in terms on international competitiveness, the future will be interesting.

[Jules-and-Boo]

Hilary has a record of inciting war and devastating the middle east - and she can't distance herself. She's a dangerous woman and while Trump is a shock, I'm relived it's not Hilary.

I do fear for America's people being allowed to become more racist, more homophobic, antagonizing the Chinese (is that a bad thing?), The WALL!!!!!! (what the hell is that all about and HOW?) and general more - up their own asses - and possibly forgetting there is a 'rest of the world' at street level.

Brexit - Obama threatened to punish UK by sending us to the back of the queue in terms of trade deals - that's completely changed and the Republican victory has probably de-stabilised the EU even further. Watch the other countries vote for the leader who will exit.

Interesting times. Short term/ long term are very different views.

[Sue]

Salsaboy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's not just the working class of America.

>

> I have a friend who lives in a very affluent part

> of New Jersey. She and her husband are well

> educated, he is in a very senior banking job and

> she doesn't need to work, they are very very

> wealthy, children attend private schools etc. etc.

> Both voted for Trump as 'he knows what is right

> for the United States'.

That is really depressing.

How can well educated (intelligent?? Maybe not .. ) people have voted for a trigger happy loose cannon with virtually no political experience, who appears to be both sexist and racist and has behaved in the most ridiculous fashion in even televised events leading up to the poll?

And voted for someone who is a climate change denier and appears to think terrorists will gather together in one place in order to be conveniently nuked?

The USA and the world/planet are going to hell in a handcart.

Brexit was bad enough. What are our children and grandchildren going to make of this?

How is everybody walking blindly into it? Do they see nothing beyond their own selfish interests and their own four walls?