BREXIT: Why so personal?

[Alan Medic]

LadyNorwood Wrote:

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> AM - who's to say they're not? Are you talking

> about the man on the street or those 'in charge'?

I haven't spoken to the man on the street. So I'm talking about the rest. I wouldn't necessarily say they are in charge. As the PM hasn't negotiated Brexit thusfar, who are the people in the know you think exist?

[LadyNorwood]

Alan Medic Wrote:

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> LadyNorwood Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > AM - who's to say they're not? Are you talking

> > about the man on the street or those 'in

> charge'?

>

>

> I haven't spoken to the man on the street. So I'm

> talking about the rest. I wouldn't necessarily say

> they are in charge. As the PM hasn't negotiated

> Brexit thusfar, who are the people in the know you

> think exist?

Who is the rest? You make very sweeping generalisations - unless you are prepared to speak to each and every person who voted then how can you know?

[jaywalker]

One thing that is clear to me is that my cosmopolitan identity - always lived in a big city (this one), pluralist values, sceptical about 'belief' (monovalent) 'values' 'nation' 'identity', coldly hostile to the increasing heteronomy of the public sphere (the collapse of the political to the mediatised, the corrosion of judicial independence, the colonisation of education at all levels by the executive, the craven subservience of both parliament and the 'serious' media to populism, the para-militarisation of the police), welcoming rather than fearful of strangers, not locking my door at night - is all no longer thought, even charitably, to be a coherent position: just a symptom of my over-education, privilege, or excessive abstraction. But these are the issues that matter to me.

[pato]

Answering the first question regarding why so much animosity I think it s very simple:

It does effect ppl in very day life. As for last recession we, in london, saw it happening maybe 1 year later (depending where you were on the ladder at that time) this one is already started but we ll see negative sooner or later. I have a friend that is leaving his teaching position at University as his worried he might not get the same money anymore on his big house. I have a family friend that runs a mid size business in here with restaurant and shops in centre that is moving warehouse in France...just in case. At my fav market 2 own holders from europe importing delicatessen told me they might not be there after winter as the euro situation is killing main part of their earnings and they are already struggling. All those people and business work in here. they employ other ppl...this other ppl have families kids and bills..they rely on this money. They inject the money back in shops hospital taxes etc

Friend of mine told me last year same months after brexit he had 30 viewings in 30 days for his second house. this year same month after brexit he had 3 viewings in 30 days and had to give it for ?50 less pcm..IT IS ALREADY HAPPENING CAUSE SOME PPL AND SINGLE INDIVIDUALS AND COMPANIES ARE ALREADY STRUGGLING.

WHAT FOR? we gonna go surely under a few (3 to 5?) years adversity let s say but than I m positive things will get better for sure, Iam positive. BUT THAN WHY undergo these years of struggling of ppl moving business closing ppl losing their job kids etc etc? I thought UK was doing already better than everybody else in Europe and possibly more...is it?? so why??

FURTHERMORE we had already what we wanted from the EU through Cameron himself! PPL didn t want foreigners to come here and stay on the dole stealing tax payers money or situation like that! Thanx to Cameron we had it: IT WAS DECIDED for ppl to come in the country not to be able to take any help or benefit etc....the market will decide. Someone with a brain comes here, he finds job or sets up business and done! Someone else comes with no brain looking for troubles doesn t get job ...can t survive....moves on to another country in europe where they might get help as by european laws...it was so simple

TRUTH is that it was all a set up for cameron to go down like already other time happened in this country and others. Than all disappeared, Boris got back in by the from door and WE no them gonna face the consequences of this.

IT WASN t a vote about europe it was A POLITICAL VOTE and a VOTE AGAINST that s why ppl fight! Cause it s unbelievable to get out of one of the biggest market of the world. there are others and more but why to get of there if WE HAD ALREADY OBTAINED SPECIAL LAWS TO CORRECT THE "PROBLEM" OF IMMIGRATION IN THIS COUNTRY

ALSO pls don t forget that UK lost the same amount of money that would have paid the cost of years in europe in one night only straight after the vote! DON T ALSO forget that areas not as lucky as london, for instance wales and scotland and ireland are still now getting loooots of help IN MONEY from the EU and they (that s why also they want to stay in europe ) really counted on that money to try and improve and live better; same as the families and businesses that are already packing up and going.....ppl have worked very very hard also in here. nobody deserves that as there is no certainty of the future and anyway I DON T REALLY THINK that such a matter should have ever gone to a referendum. not even the best scientist can still determine if brexit is good or bad for UK how can You ask the bus driver the teacher the builder the regular ppl that we all are! Referendum should be for things like divorce or rights etc if you see what i mean..

I think a small business with 4/5 employees shutting down means something like 20 ppl with no or less work including families and business around it. i don t think is any good and even more i think it s a shame.

I thought the strength of this country is also the foreigners here. PPL from UK have migrated pretty much all over the world..

I m not an UK CITIZEN but feel very much a londoner after nearly 20 yrs, after going to war looking for weapon of mass destruction.

Wish everybody best and fingers crossed..

[civilservant]

why so personal?

because it was a referendum - each vote expressed a personal preference, unmediated by party political affiliation or parliamentary politics or any of the other baggage that distinguishes democracy from mob rule

and because the vote came in as close to 50:50 as goshdarnit, the remainers feel hard done by, while brexiters get very shrill to drown out the inconvenient fact that their majority was not quite as resounding as they'd have liked it to be

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

LadyNorwood Wrote:

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> Shaggy Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > And your point is?

>

> My point is this - at no stage was it indicated to

> the electorate that Parliament would then debate

> the outcome - it was clearly stated, again, "This

> is your decision. The Government will implement

> what you decide". Such was the naivety and

> arrogance of the ruling elite (on both sides of

> both Houses) that they did not contemplate the

> effects of a Leave vote. A question was asked, an

> answer was given, now the goal posts are being

> jiggled about in a frantic attempt to appease that

> ruling elite....

> I'm sorry if I wasn't air headed enough for you

> first time round, I do hope this clarifies that I

> am, indeed, a really stupid girly....

The government are going to implement what you've decided. However, unless we want to fall back to WTO standards which would be disastrous for the country, parliament still needs to decided how we are going to exit.

[P.O.U.S.theWonderCat]

The judgement is a really interesting read. I also agree that those who are claiming that it somehow undermines the validity of the Brexit vote or that we should "just get on" with leaving haven't read it.

I also find the DM attack on the judges downright sinister. If we're going to question the impartiality of the judges (who like all lawyers are trained to distinguish between evidence, inference and opinion) because we don't like what they've said, or suggest that parliament can somehow be avoided in a process that will disenfranchise us of our rights, we may as well throw out the rule of law, tear up the Magna Carta and go back to absolutist monarchy or a fascist regime.

[dc]

LadyNorwood Wrote:

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> The wording on the ballot paper stated "This is

> your decision. The Government will implement what

> you decide" - there was no mention of Parliament

> being involved.

That wording may have been somewhere but it was, categorically, not on the ballot paper itself.

[LadyNorwood]

dc Wrote:

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> LadyNorwood Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > The wording on the ballot paper stated "This is

> > your decision. The Government will implement

> what

> > you decide" - there was no mention of

> Parliament

> > being involved.

>

> That wording may have been somewhere but it was,

> categorically, not on the ballot paper itself.

Yes, I've already clarified that, if you read my earlier posts - I said mea culpa OK? It was on the leaflet distributed by the Government to every household..... Anyway we now have some NHS worker at GOSH wishing a Leaver's child gets sick and doesn't get treatment (on BBC QT last night) - how personal can this get??

[Alan Medic]

LadyNorwood Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Alan Medic Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > LadyNorwood Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > AM - who's to say they're not? Are you

> talking

> > > about the man on the street or those 'in

> > charge'?

> >

> >

> > I haven't spoken to the man on the street. So

> I'm

> > talking about the rest. I wouldn't necessarily

> say

> > they are in charge. As the PM hasn't negotiated

> > Brexit thusfar, who are the people in the know

> you

> > think exist?

>

>

> Who is the rest? You make very sweeping

> generalisations - unless you are prepared to speak

> to each and every person who voted then how can

> you know?

To cut to the chase, who are the informed people out there? I don't see them. Enlighten me.

[LadyNorwood]

Alan Medic Wrote:

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> LadyNorwood Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Alan Medic Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > LadyNorwood Wrote:

> > >

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> >

> > > -----

> > > > AM - who's to say they're not? Are you

> > talking

> > > > about the man on the street or those 'in

> > > charge'?

> > >

> > >

> > > I haven't spoken to the man on the street. So

> > I'm

> > > talking about the rest. I wouldn't

> necessarily

> > say

> > > they are in charge. As the PM hasn't

> negotiated

> > > Brexit thusfar, who are the people in the

> know

> > you

> > > think exist?

> >

> >

> > Who is the rest? You make very sweeping

> > generalisations - unless you are prepared to

> speak

> > to each and every person who voted then how can

> > you know?

>

> To cut to the chase, who are the informed people

> out there? I don't see them. Enlighten me.

FFS - I don't know, I never said I did, why don't you go out and ask some people, I really cannot wait to move out of London, actually I don't even need to do that, I'm just going to not participate in the edf anymore - cheerio, have a great weekend all....

[Earl Aelfheah]

Nice flounce

[????]

P.O.U.S.theWonderCat Wrote:

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>

>

> I also find the DM attack on the judges downright

> sinister. If we're going to question the

> impartiality of the judges (who like all lawyers

> are trained to distinguish between evidence,

> inference and opinion) because we don't like what

> they've said, or suggest that parliament can

> somehow be avoided in a process that will

> disenfranchise us of our rights, we may as well

> throw out the rule of law, tear up the Magna Carta

> and go back to absolutist monarchy or a fascist

> regime.

It's the Daily Mail

[JohnL]

Why is the PM talking to the EU President today

What is the point of that - it's just grandstanding.

Less and less impressed by TM every day.

[Earl Aelfheah]

TM was never very impressive imo. Her time as home secretary was characterised by periods of bad judgement and a careless approach to civil liberties, interspersed with a penchant for keeping her head down. In fact it was only her talent for ?going missing? when things get difficult which saw her through Brexit in political poll position.

[Earl Aelfheah]

... that and the dearth of remotely viable alternative candidates.

[Seabag]

It's basically a reflection of the divide within the/her party, and PMTM is playing it. On one side many feel a softer way is a more realistic way, but no no that would draw criticism from within and possibly trigger a crumbling of her position.

So keep talking tough, and your party/those who like that stuff will be nod you along, whilst the rest of the country, Europe and the world look on in dismay as the self harming persists.

Maybe the real tools of democracy can be used by the people's elected representatives, to get the best from the position that's been created.

[Otta]

LadyNorwood Wrote:

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> FFS - I don't know, I never said I did, why don't

> you go out and ask some people, I really cannot

> wait to move out of London, actually I don't even

> need to do that, I'm just going to not participate

> in the edf anymore - cheerio, have a great weekend

> all....

Superb bit of flouncing there.

[????]

Flouncing out of London because of the EDF is a first I think?

[JohnL]

???? Wrote:

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>

>

> It's the Daily Mail

The Mail (allegedly) said (before removing it) ...

"the third is an openly gay ex Olympic Fencer"

Sounds like a complement really :)

[Earl Aelfheah]

Eurosceptic Stephen Phillips has just resigned from the Conservatives over May's attempts to circumvent the legislature on Brexit.

[JohnL]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> Eurosceptic Stephen Phillips has just resigned

> from the Conservatives over May's attempts to

> circumvent the legislature on Brexit.

Doesn't want the tyranny of Brussels replaced by the

tyranny of Westminster

But what else was going to happen.

[Earl Aelfheah]

I am coming to the opinion that anything short of a hard break with the Union is going to prove impossible. The EU aren't going to allow access to the single market without the responsibilities that go along with it - any of which will be completely unacceptable to huge numbers of Eurosceptic zealots and the rabid, spitting, right wing press (who now claim to have the 'will of the people' on their side). It's hard to see how parliament will accept such an exit (or at least how it can if it's doing it's job properly). This could become intractable.

[Earl Aelfheah]

JohnL Wrote:

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> rahrahrah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Eurosceptic Stephen Phillips has just resigned

> > from the Conservatives over May's attempts to

> > circumvent the legislature on Brexit.

>

>

> Doesn't want the tyranny of Brussels replaced by

> the

> tyranny of Westminster

>

> But what else was going to happen.

He's in favour of parlimentary scrutiny to be fair. It's May's attempt to push through Brexit without debate that has upset him - so actually quite a consistent and principled position.

[Earl Aelfheah]

He also took a very principled position on the child refugee issue, so fair play to him.